Chromium Oxide paste

I don't know whether to post this on the Shaving thread or here, but here goes.

I have been getting what I thought were good shaves for months. Only trouble spot was my chin. It always took lots of "hacking around" at different angles and most of the time ended up red and touchy for a couple of hours. Well, last night I did 20 or so laps on a chromium oxide pasted leather bench hone. Wow! This morning a normal 2 pass shave even on the chin and slick as a whistle all over. And I noticed that on the second pass I could not hear the blade cutting whiskers.

Are most people able to get this sharpness on a hone? And since I am the type who figures if a little is good, a lot is better, how much is enough on the pasted strop?

Vern

Chromium oxide will improve your shave significantly. If you're satisfied with your shave results, leave it as is and refresh periodically.
The other option is to do another 10 strokes, test-shave, then another etc etc etc, until you get to the point where the shave performance isn't improving. The problem is that you could develop a wire edge and need to take the razor back to the Norton for a bit of lovin'.

I don't have a set number of laps. I use two products from HandAmerican. I start with the boron carbide paste, wipe the razor, hit the chromium oxide paste, wipe, strop as normal. I go by the sound & feel. When one of my razors needs a little time on the paste, there is a noticeable sound present when I start, sort of raspy, gritty... I don't know how else to describe it, but it isn't present on the plain leather. Once this sound fades to smoothness, I proceed to the next step. These will really polish an edge up nicely.

I frequenty experience exactly the same thing, Vern. I think you're on target. :tu

X

Thanks, everybody. I'll try to refrain from the "more is better" syndrome with the pasted strop.

Vern

Some guys can get this level of sharp on a hone. Lynn can for sure, the two blades I've gotten from lynn smoked my best results on a hone and nearly everything I've done on chrome oxide for that matter.

Chrome oxide makes a hero out of just about anybody, which is part of why it's so addictive, and partly why it's not necessarily a good thing to have available when you're first learning honing. It's a crutch - you can get a poorly honed razor shaving sharp with chrome oxide but you can get a well-honed razor spooky sharp on chrome oxide. It's easy to get complacent and get sloppy on the hones, because the chrome oxide will get it sharp anyway. I occasionally go through periods where I stop using the paddles and try and match that level of edge using just the hones, and sometimes I get pretty close.

MParker,

I know this is hard to do, but could you elaborate a bit on how you judge sharpness? Do you bother with the HHT? What do you look for in a "successful" shave test?

I'm able to get edges that pass the HHT very well off the 8K, and they shave me pretty well. But my beard is tough, and I find that I can't get an irritation-free shave on my chin unless I go to .5 micron diamond paste on a leather paddle for at least 20 to 30 laps.

I think there's more sharpness to squeeze out of the Norton 8K, and I'm still improving. Can you shave straight off the Norton without any irritation?

I identify with what you're saying about getting lazy with the hones, and I hope to continue my improvement in that area.

Josh

I'm not the best guy to ask about this. But I don't use the HHT - the hair on my head is very very fine and even the feather won't pass the HHT with it. I use my arm hair, I just touch the hairs a millimeter or so above the skin and see if they pop. I use the hair on the inside of my arm because it seems to correlate better with the level of sharpness I want. I also use the thumb pad test. But ultimately the shave test is the important one. I've got a pretty tough beard and get noticeable pulling even with the feather AC, so that's really where I see how sharp the blade really is. Shaving with the grain isn't too critical pull-wise, the only thing I'm looking for here is how much stubble is left. The real test is across the grain on my chin (toughest hair, and toughest part to shave in general), and against the grain under my jaw.

I should also mention that I'm using the armhair test less and less because I'm getting better at feeling the fin forming up on the hones. I can't feel this on the norton, which is one reason I don't use it much anymore, but the arkansas stones, tam o shanter, and shaptons really tell you a lot about the edge, especially if you're honing a smiling blade where you can easily feel what's happening at each point along the edge as you rock the blade down the hone.

Yes, I can shave off the 8k without irritation, I've done this off and on since I started depending on what else I was playing with. But I get more pulling than if I finish on the 8k shapton, which is more pulling than I get if I finish on the 15k shapton, which is more pulling than if I finish on my "The King" barber hone, which is more pulling than I get if I finish on the chrome oxide. Even so, low "pulling" or "tugging" isn't the only quality I'm looking for in an edge - toughness and smoothness are others, and IMO sharpness and smoothness aren't quite the same thing (vis the feather). My fondness for Cr2O3 (and Boron Carbide) is because they combine smoothness, sharpness, and toughness (when used on a hard paddle, though this comes at the expense of honing speed). Diamond is very fast and is available in some impressively fine grits, but tends to leave a rougher edge and IMO seems to produce a less stable edge at similar grits.

I have been comparing Aluminium oxide lapping films with CrO and find CrO gives a much better finish.

For clarity;

Dichromium Trioxide (Cr2O3), commonly called Chromium Oxide, Chrome Oxide and sometimes Chromic oxide is, I believe, the is the substance we are using.

Chromium Dioxide (CrO2) which is also sometimes referred to as Chromium Oxide, is a magnetic substance used to make audio cassettes.

I suppose we could write it in short form as CrO, but CrO2 is just the wrong stuff.

X

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Originally Posted by mparker762

It's easy to get complacent and get sloppy on the hones, because the chrome oxide will get it sharp anyway. I occasionally go through periods where I stop using the paddles and try and match that level of edge using just the hones, and sometimes I get pretty close.

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This is one thing I still don't 100% get. Is the poorly honed razor that's nevertheless sharp because of chrome oxide inferior to one well-honed on stones? I've always assumed that's the case from the way people talk, but I've never really understood the physics of it.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

My fondness for Cr2O3 (and Boron Carbide) is because they combine smoothness, sharpness, and toughness (when used on a hard paddle, though this comes at the expense of honing speed).

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If used on firm leather, the edge is inferior?

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Originally Posted by dylandog

This is one thing I still don't 100% get. Is the poorly honed razor that's nevertheless sharp because of chrome oxide inferior to one well-honed on stones? I've always assumed that's the case from the way people talk, but I've never really understood the physics of it.

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That's been the case for me. It's like the paddles can improve an edge X amount, and this can get a marginal edge into the "good shave" levels of sharpness. But you're much better off taking a razor that's already shaving sharp and giving it that same X amount of improvement. But it's very easy to become complacent and be satisfied with the first route.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

If used on firm leather, the edge is inferior?

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I get pretty consistently better edges on hardwood than leather, though the difference is probably modest if you use a very smooth gentle stroke - I have trouble achieving this to my satisfaction on leather because of the drag. IMO the wood surfaces are much more tolerant of pressure and much less prone to weakening the fin, and because the drag is so low it's much easier to maintain a very light touch and smooth stroke. However, pastes on hardwood are much slower than pastes on leather, so it's not an unqualified win by any means.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

I get pretty consistently better edges on hardwood than leather, though the difference is probably modest if you use a very smooth gentle stroke - I have trouble achieving this to my satisfaction on leather because of the drag. IMO the wood surfaces are much more tolerant of pressure and much less prone to weakening the fin, and because the drag is so low it's much easier to maintain a very light touch and smooth stroke. However, pastes on hardwood are much slower than pastes on leather, so it's not an unqualified win by any means.

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That's interesting to hear. I feel like I've been struggling a little with using my paste on a brushed leather surface. Maybe I should make a change.

X

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Originally Posted by mparker762

IMO the wood surfaces are much more tolerant of pressure and much less prone to weakening the fin, and because the drag is so low it's much easier to maintain a very light touch and smooth stroke.

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My chrome oxide/boron carbide leather bench hone just arrived today. I suppose I'll make a special effort to go gentle.

AFAIK I'm the only one pushing CO on wood, everybody else that loves this stuff is using leather. So I wouldn't read too much into what I say on the matter, I'm just one data point after all, even if a somewhat outspoken one.

Since i've been talking about them so much, here's a photo of my poplar paddles, pasted with dichromium trioxide and boron carbide. The dichromium trioxide paddle is actually pasted on both sides because it kept curling. Now I just use whichever side is convex, unless I'm doing a smiling blade in which case I get better results on the concave side :-)

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Originally Posted by dylandog

My chrome oxide/boron carbide leather bench hone just arrived today. I suppose I'll make a special effort to go gentle.

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Out of curiousity, where'd you get your bench hone and how long did it take to arrive?
--Dave

I sourced my leather from Tony, but it was a part of a much bigger order for (Oakville) Dave (mindspin), that included a hanging strop and who knows what else Dave got lol. The 3.125x12.000" marble strip came from Jason.

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Originally Posted by DMS

Out of curiousity, where'd you get your bench hone and how long did it take to arrive?
--Dave

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I think Dylan may have bought one of mine last week. Thety are instock and take a day to paste and let dry before shipping. Some of the guys make their own too but not sure if they saved any money or time in the process <g>

All this chromium oxide talk has convinced my to do one up for myself! So far I have always used diamond paste but at the 0.5 micron level it is nice to have a choice. I'm gonna do a wide 2 side bench strop with handle, 0.5 diamond on one side and 0.5 chromium oxide on the other.

Tony

Welcome to the church of Chromiumoxidology, brother-Tony :nj

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

All this chromium oxide talk has convinced my to do one up for myself! So far I have always used diamond paste but at the 0.5 micron level it is nice to have a choice. I'm gonna do a wide 2 side bench strop with handle, 0.5 diamond on one side and 0.5 chromium oxide on the other.

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You may not see as big an improvement as the rest of us. TI's have a special fondness for diamond for some reason. I don't use .5 diamond on mine anymore, but I'm not sure they're much sharper with chrome oxide than they were with .5 diamond. They do seem to have a stronger edge though.

Have you tried the .1 micron diamond paste?

I use the 0.25 and while it creates a wicked sharp edge I feel it is not as durable an edge. I find myself needing to refresh more often if I finish with the 0.25 instead of the 0.5. I fear the 0.1 will be even worse. Both are probably overkill really and I am trying to get more in the habit of using stones again simply because I have strayed from them a bit lately.

I think I read that you got yourself a Tam O'Shanter hone now (sorry I forgot to send mine for a trial). How do you like it? Mine is so far unused.

Tony

The tam o shanter has largely replaced the 8k side of my norton. Sometimes I go from the tamoshanter directly to the boron carbide or chrome oxide, lately I've been going to the 15k shapton because I'm concerned I've been leaning on the paddles too much. Other than the necessity of a slurry it reminds me of a really fine arkansas. My Wacker loves it, and shaves great straight off the tamoshanter.

Excellent! I'll have to give mine a try and see how it does.

Tony

I indeed got mine from Tony. It arrived in, I don't know, three days or so. I have real respect for (not to mention envy of) the DIY ethos among SRP members, but in terms of money saved, it can't be much given Tony's low prices and impeccable craftsmanship.

I agree with dylandog. Making my own bench hone was fun, but it's not as nice as my paddle from Tony, and I probably "saved" about $10 while putting in two or three hours worth of work. It was fun, though. :)

Josh

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

I think Dylan may have bought one of mine last week. Thety are instock and take a day to paste and let dry before shipping. Some of the guys make their own too but not sure if they saved any money or time in the process <g>

All this chromium oxide talk has convinced my to do one up for myself! So far I have always used diamond paste but at the 0.5 micron level it is nice to have a choice. I'm gonna do a wide 2 side bench strop with handle, 0.5 diamond on one side and 0.5 chromium oxide on the other.

Tony

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Tony, can you also supply chromium oxide paste/liquid or whatever form is used for refreshing the hone in the future?
--Dave

Dave,
I probably could but mixing, bottling, etc.... takes time which I have little of right now. There are sources already for chromium oxide so no point in reinventing the wheel......not just yet anyway <g>

Tony

I think the point to remember when using either the green paste or diamond pastes is that the sharpness really comes from the hone and the glide or smoothness is much improved with the pastes depending on the razor.

Lynn

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

I think the point to remember when using either the green paste or diamond pastes is that the sharpness really comes from the hone and the glide or smoothness is much improved with the pastes depending on the razor.

Lynn

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Exactly, while pastes are an easy way for a beginner to get started and have a near 100% suces rate they do not replace a hone, especially for creating that initial sharp edge. Once created on the hone one can go right to a hanging strop or further refine the edge with either pastes applied to a variety of tools of on finer hones like barber hones, Belgians, Eschers and Thuringens.

There is no single tool that will do everything as Lynn's DVD points out. Each razor, each user has different succes rates with each tool. Eventually it would be nice to learn to use and own one of each....Norton, finishing hone (Belgian or Thuringen) and some type of pasted paddle type strop to get the best out of each razor. A hone (Norton, etc...) is probably the only one you can get around not owning but you will still need it's services as supplied by one of the honemeisters here by sending off your razor a few times a year.

Tony