New Kanayama - Surface imperfections

Hey all,

A week ago I purchased a new Kanayama #3 strop from Aframes Tokyo. As some will know, Aframes Tokyo dispatch from Hawaii, and today I received my new strop here in the UK - Very quick delivery!

Upon unboxing the well packed strop, I was obviously delighted to be holding my first Kanayama. Unfortunately, closer inspection of the suede side revealed various nicks and imperfections, which I am obviously assuming are not normally present. The strop was sealed in a polythene bag, so I don't doubt that it is new, and the cordovan side of the strop is perfect - not a mark on it.

I read recently on Jim Rion's blog page (Eastern Smooth), that the reason he stopped selling Kanayama's back in 2012 was that increasingly a certain percentage of new stock that he received was not up to the standard normally expected of these fine strops - A problem that he attributed partly to the maker's increasing age.

The pictures below show the nicks/marks/imperfections, call them what you will. Basically I am a little stuck on what to do. If the strop had come to me from a UK vendor, I would have no hesitation in sending it back with a view to getting a replacement - but sending it all the way back to Hawaii is a bit of a pain.

The imperfections are aesthetic defects only, so I wonder if I should just forget they are there. Alternatively, Aframes Tokyo also sell the relevant linen side for this strop, which can be swapped with the suede side as and when desired - perhaps I should ask the vendor if he would do me a deal on the linen side?

Any advice appreciated!

Regards,

Al.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...409_182158.jpg

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...409_182207.jpg

From the looks of the pictures, the damage doesn't look all that bad so I'd guess the strop would perform as it should.
That said, a Kanayama strop is imho the very best strop money can buy, and so I personally would prefer a product that reflected that.
It might be nit-picking, but there you go.
Send the vendor a mail with the pictures and see where that leaves you:)
Good luck.

The vendor says its very common. Its only aesthetic, so it performs perfectly. If it had been a very high end Kanayama, maybe I'd be after a replacement, but at just over $100, there seems little to complain about. Particularly as the business side of the strop is perfect. What a feel these things have!

When you buy a bargain product you expect certain issues. When you go top of the line you should expect commensurate quality. it's that simple to me.

Gentlemen,
I have two Kanayama/Kanoyama strops, the 70000 and the 80000, and both are perfect. Looking at these photographs, the imperfections seem superficial and should not effect the performance of this glorious strop.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

When you buy a bargain product you expect certain issues. When you go top of the line you should expect commensurate quality. it's that simple to me.

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I wouldn't consider "just over $100" on a strop a bargain product though. I paid around €90 ($125) for my Scruplework strop, and that was a very high quality item. No way I'd classify it as a bargain product.

Not even compared to a $300 'top of the line' hand-made in Japan product.

The imperfections seem superficial, but they are definitely imperfections. If the you can live with those, fine. But if it bothers you, Al, I can perfectly understand that. In my opinion, a bit over $100 should not get you an imperfect strop, period.

Me, I want to mess up my expensive stuff myself.

$100 is a bargain prices for a strop? I can't help thinking that there is a yawning chasm in perspectives.

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Originally Posted by Christel

$100 is a bargain prices for a strop? I can't help thinking that there is a yawning chasm in perspectives.

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As you said it is all a matter of perspective. It is a bargain price against a $300 strop vs an expensive price against a $20 strop.

Bob

When I said what I did I didn't attach prices to the term bargain. it was a general thing applying to all items be it a strop or a razor or a new car. it's all relative. An old friend considered his new Yugo a very high quality car.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I wouldn't consider "just over $100" on a strop a bargain product though. I paid around €90 ($125) for my Scruplework strop, and that was a very high quality item. No way I'd classify it as a bargain product.

Not even compared to a $300 'top of the line' hand-made in Japan product.

The imperfections seem superficial, but they are definitely imperfections. If the you can live with those, fine. But if it bothers you, Al, I can perfectly understand that. In my opinion, a bit over $100 should not get you an imperfect strop, period.

Me, I want to mess up my expensive stuff myself.

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Yeah I have to agree on all counts. But I guess I feel the overall issue of imperfections is not as clear cut as it could be. If it was a simple case of sending this back to the retailer in exchange for another which was guaranteed as being without imperfections, then I'd definitely do so. But the retailer claims the marks are found on many of his stock Kanayamas, so has only offered a refund rather than an exchange.

I guess the fact is that it's aesthetic imperfection only, the strop works just fine and the cordovan side has no imperfections. Whilst I also believe that $100 should get me a strop with no imperfections, it is difficult to know how much longer Kanayama strops will be on the market for, so maybe that makes it easier to accept these minor aesthetic imperfections.

Bit late now anyway, I've been using it for a week! (And very nice it is too!)

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Originally Posted by Christel

$100 is a bargain prices for a strop? I can't help thinking that there is a yawning chasm in perspectives.

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I do agree, it's not a bargain price for a strop. But when his high end strops are over $300, it makes $100 feel like a bargain!

I would like to know how $300 can buy you a better strop. Does it do all the work for you? I have only ever and I never use it much because I have old strops that out perform it in every way....Kana's are hyped up imo. 😜

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Originally Posted by PuFFaH

I would like to know how $300 can buy you a better strop. Does it do all the work for you? I have only ever and I never use it much because I have old strops that out perform it in every way....Kana's are hyped up imo. ��

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Personally, I love knowing that someone with the expertise of over 40 (or more) years make this in his little workplace. That alone for me is worth paying more. And also you know that when you have one of these strops, it's something rare. Not everyone that shaves and that own strops has one of those. This also adds to the personal value of the strop.

And yes, the quality is there!

This thread just makes me want one.

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Originally Posted by PuFFaH

I would like to know how $300 can buy you a better strop. Does it do all the work for you? I have only ever and I never use it much because I have old strops that out perform it in every way....Kana's are hyped up imo. ��

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I've had plenty of strops in my time and none are like that one. It really is different. Does it do a better job? No it doesn't but it's like everything else in life. You pay your money to get quality in places that are important to you. Otherwise we would all be driving around in Yugos.

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Originally Posted by KrytonsJaw

I do agree, it's not a bargain price for a strop. But when his high end strops are over $300, it makes $100 feel like a bargain!

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Another thing to take into consideration is that a dollar is worth about a dime. That is the real deal if you're 65 and remember when a buck was worth $0.75. You'd have to be maybe 120 to remember when it was worth a buck. :shrug:

A # 3 is at the lower end of his production. If you bought an 80,000 and it had some imperfections in the finish I would say you had a reason to complain. Not that there should be imperfections in a $100 strop, but at least it gets the job done.

Ordered one today. Really excited about owning one. I will let you know how mine looks upon arrival.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Another thing to take into consideration is that a dollar is worth about a dime. That is the real deal if you're 65 and remember when a buck was worth $0.75. You'd have to be maybe 120 to remember when it was worth a buck. :shrug:

A # 3 is at the lower end of his production. If you bought an 80,000 and it had some imperfections in the finish I would say you had a reason to complain. Not that there should be imperfections in a $100 strop, but at least it gets the job done.

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I recall, back in the day we used to say "not worth a continental" that's how little a buck was worth. We had to beg the redcoats for just about everything.

I have both the #3 and the 90,000 and the quality of the strop is the same. The 3 is thinner and shorter and doesn't come with the sueded strop but the pre strop is actually thicker than what came with the 90,000 which I got years later.

But if you want the best you have to preorder the 1,000,000 model. It's so thick Jimmy used to use it to throw hot rivets around. He made a sling out of it like the one David used to take care of Goliath.

Mine arrived today and exceeded my expectations. Pure luxury for around $100 shipped

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Originally Posted by AntiqueHoosier

Mine arrived today and exceeded my expectations. Pure luxury for around $100 shipped

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I love my 80000. It just seems to elevate the experience to a diff level. Depends on what you get pleasure from out of this hobby. Part myth + part real = awesome.

Me, I obtained one of Jim's last 50K strops and the leather is wonderful. Would I do it again?? I do not know.
~Richard

A lot of good points ... on both sides.

I have a #3. It's a very nice strop! My one beef, and for myself, it's an important one, is that I'd much prefer natural linen as a second component. And this is the point that keeps me from shelling out the coin for an expensive K strop.
I've got a Neil Miller, shell cordovan and natural linen in the length and width I like, made to my specs, and it's all the strop I'll ever need. As a matter of fact, if I was twenty years younger, I'd by an extra, exactly the same from Neil ... Just in case of the unlikely event, I managed to wear the original out.

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Originally Posted by Druid

A lot of good points ... on both sides.

I have a #3. It's a very nice strop! My one beef, and for myself, it's an important one, is that I'd much prefer natural linen as a second component. And this is the point that keeps me from shelling out the coin for an expensive K strop.
I've got a Neil Miller, shell cordovan and natural linen in the length and width I like, made to my specs, and it's all the strop I'll ever need. As a matter of fact, if I was twenty years younger, I'd by an extra, exactly the same from Neil ... Just in case of the unlikely event, I managed to wear the original out.

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Good point - my favorite second side is Neil's linen. I like my Neil Miller so much, attempting to get one of his shells is definitely on my list.

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Originally Posted by Christel

$100 is a bargain prices for a strop? I can't help thinking that there is a yawning chasm in perspectives.

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If you price shell cordovan, you'll think that $100 for any strop made with cordovan is awfully cheap. I went out of my way a few years ago to get horween shell and the leather basically cost me $150 for the strop. Horween nailed me for $225 with shipping for the shell and I sold the remaining leather of the shell (after I cut the strop out of the longest part in the middle) for $75. Great strop, but still, it was $150 for the leather and no linen and i had to make it and brass fixtures to hold it together.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I've had plenty of strops in my time and none are like that one. It really is different. Does it do a better job? No it doesn't but it's like everything else in life. You pay your money to get quality in places that are important to you. Otherwise we would all be driving around in Yugos.

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The kanayama 80k I had was like eating premium ice cream vs. eating frozen flavored ice (much smoother). I have strops that are broken in that do a little better than my 80k kanayama, but comparing a glazed up horse butt strop with 750 strop sessions on it to a brand new razor isn't fair. I'm sure had I kept the kanayama, it would've developed that slickness on the surface and been heavenly and super.

Plus, it's shell. Where else is anyone going to get new shell cordovan? I really like cheap horse butt strip if a clear section can be found, but it's rough until it's broken in, which probably takes 2500 strokes. Before that, it marks a razor a little bit.

The kanayama premium stuff is very fine, and unlike some of the dissenters seem to be implying, not by any means a $100 strop with a $300 price tag.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

If you price shell cordovan, you'll think that $100 for any strop made with cordovan is awfully cheap. I went out of my way a few years ago to get horween shell and the leather basically cost me $150 for the strop. Horween nailed me for $225 with shipping for the shell and I sold the remaining leather of the shell (after I cut the strop out of the longest part in the middle) for $75. Great strop, but still, it was $150 for the leather and no linen and i had to make it and brass fixtures to hold it together.

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Where did you get the Horween Shell?
do you have a source? because you cannot buy it from Horween.

I actually did get it from horween. I have a thread on here somewhere about it, but there was a catch, and it's as follows:
* I called horween and they referenced me to a retail group of theirs that was marketing leather at the time. Like anyone else would want to do, I wanted to make an online order so I had a record, but I couldn't do that
* I called the retail number and talked to a salesperson, you know, like the old days - one who talked me through what I was looking for and we settled on shell

It worked out like this:
* I placed the order and gave the guy my credit card
* He asked what color I wanted and what size, and then said I'd hear from them (I think it was via email) when they had a shell for me
* Either he or someone else said basically that when I was getting just one shell, I'd be getting it when one of their bigger customers didn't need them. If I wanted burgundy then I'd be waiting until the bigger customers were satisfied. That was fine with me, it took about 2 months.
* it was $175 for a no. 2 shell which yielded me one 23 inch strop. Somehow the price with shipping and whatever else ended up being closer to $225 by the time I got it. Because it was an old school talk to the salesman and get nothing in writing kind of deal, I took my lumps on the shipping

I can check my email history if you'd like me to find out who it was that I talked to and give you their number.

The way business was conducted (i literally took a half hour of a salesman's time for a single no. 2 shell), I can't imagine that they could stay in business on the retail side.

I just looked in my emails, and I called someone named Eric Frank at the retail arm of Horween that was called "Tannery Row".

I have no clue if it's still in business. That was october of 2012. I got to them by going to horween first, and they gave me the contact information for their retail group.

Back then, the commentary I got was also that you couldn't get leather from horween retail, and I saw that several places (not just here). I'd always call them to check first if you want it, and not rely on people online telling you that it can't be gotten retail. They just don't have the easily available shells in an online store or anything.

It helped that I wanted to use mine for a razor strop, because no 2 shells don't usually have a clear run 23-24 inches long, but because I had talked to them for a bit about it and brought up razor strops and said I was an enthusiast, they went out of their way and found me a no 2 shell (1.75 square feet is the size of a no 2 shell) that was a little longer and narrower.

If you do manage to get to them, even if they still have a retail group available, expect to wait until they've satisifed their regular customers, and they won't be able to tell you when that will be, you just make your order and then wait to get lucky.

I will say this, it makes a heavenly strop. The best broken in strop I have ever used is a long clear horse butt strip that I made myself, but it was no treat until it was broken in and slick. This horween is its equal. Most other retail strops I've used have not had the same ability of either of those two to maintain a well honed edge as sharp and smooth for as long as either of those.

Horse butt is easy to find, but not necessarily easy to find in 24 inch clear runs, and it's not suitable for the most part for professional strop makers because their clientele isn't going to tolerate the answer of "hey, use your regular strop for two months but then strop a junk razor on your horse butt strip strop ever day on top of that until the horse butt strop loses the gritty feel and becomes slick".

(having those two strops among every other, I still use the horse butt on a day to day basis. I'm saving the horween for something, and what that is, I have no clue - i know it has a finite life span, and the horse butt seems to go the other way - starts off rough gets smooth. The horween looks to start off smooth and then the surface treatment wears away and it loses some of its slickness).

Gents:

In my particular situation I had 2 years ago a horween. Really, I sold it. It's just paint. In the other hand I could get a Kanayama and hey, top its just awesome. Keep it. forget about the rest a Kanayama is natural stuff.

Thanks'
Ken

It's in the treatment, I guess. I don't know that I'd say horween's shell is "just paint". Shoes have been made from it that last 50 years. It's a shame we're not slaughtering horses over here in large numbers so that we can get it at a reasonable price. I'd love to have shoes made from it, but the cheapest I've seen are allen edmonds and they're $600. The kanayama cordovan is different - thicker and softer, and having had both at the same time, I prefer the horween - it's harder, faster, and out of the box it makes for a keener razor. It might take the kanayama some time to wear into having a mirror shine, I didn't keep mine long enough to find out because I was worried that if it didn't, I'd have a well used strop that I wouldn't be able to resell.

I do have a piece of hanging horse butt that is on par with fresh horween, and it cost a grand total of about $15 (I had to make the strop, though) and a little risk to get a butt strip that looked smooth in a long run (you never know until you get it). The catch is that horse butt has to be worn in, but once it is, the surface is reflective. It is as good as anything I've used, and leads to a keener edge than a kanayama 80,000 did straight out of the box. Horse butt strip is wonderful stuff untreated for someone who is willing to make their own, and do the work to find a clear run, *and* to break in the strop to turn its hard abrasive characteristics into fast hard and slick.

At any rate, there's more to horween shell than paint. The shell leather is entirely different than anyone else's, including kanayama. Veg tanned horse butt with no surface treatment is unbeatable for the stingy, though. At least in a hanging strop. It's too hard for a paddle strop.

I have a pair of Bostonian Shoes that are Horween. I got them around 30 years ago and they look as good as the day I got them. It's expensive but they wear like iron and outlast everything else so in the end they aren't as expensive after the initial outlay.