The CBN Project

So if you have read this thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...wool-felt.html

You'll know that I got some .25 diamond spray and threw it on a nice hard pressed felt strop. You'll also know, that I wasn't having too much luck with it - as I felt it made my blades too keen and produced a harsh shave.

OK so I hadn't finished experimenting with the .25, but I got a PM from Marty who said he might be able to help. Since he offered to set me up - how could I say no?

His solution? CBN!

I never tried the stuff, so I was more than glad to give it a shot! His package arrived at my door today. Thanks Marty!!

Attachment 172431

One treated paper strop and a water spritzer.

Here it is hanging on my towel rack.

Attachment 172433

Now I was also given instructions, but for the sake of time, the key things to note is that I am to work my blade on some .25 diamond, but then work the blade over the .5 CBN for a bit, followed by the .125 CBN.

He assures me that this, even after the .25 diamond which was causing me to have too keen a shave, will create a smoother experience. The spritzer is so I can mosten the paper treated CBN strop before use.


To put it all to the test, I have chosen a blade that has always straddled keen just off the stones. I have calmed her down and love the blade, but if this stuff is to do what is claimed, this is the perfect blade to experiment on - that and i know the blade well.

Attachment 172434
The test subject :)

To be fair, I touched up my Boker this evening and just shaved with it - lovely and smooth.

This weekend, I'll apply some .25 diamond to it. I expect it'll be hell. After confirmation of a too keen blade, I'll begin the CRN treatment.

I intend to strop the first day using the CRN with both the .5 and the .125. Then I'll only strop the blade on the .125 for 7 more shaves before seeing how long I can go without any treatments.

It should be fun!!

I am posting now as I go along to bring anyone who's interested along for the ride. That and so I can post when its all fresh in my mind.

I'll report back sometime this weekend. :)

'Cutter, I think you're gonna be a happy guy. Thanks to the honorable Riooso, my first experience w/ CBN was excellent. I use more strokes than diamond, but again, I'm using a pc of hard felt 4"x6" total. After stones, I might give that little pad 10 strokes & be amazed. Smoothness & Sharp give each other a big sloppy wet one.

I mostly reserve the sprays for wavy blades. I can fairly reliably do it on the stones, but its a PITA.

Another thing your sequence tells you is that getting some nasty sharp w/ diamond isn't a problem if its not the last finishing operation. From there, finish on CBN or a natural of your choice.

I already know you're gonna like it. You might ask the Honorable MrSell to weigh in on sprays & pastes. He's tried more than I ever will & has some experience at picking the fly poop out of the pepper.

Have been considering CBN for quite some time. It will be interesting to see what you think of it.

Way to go David, I love reading threads like this :tu where somebody actually takes the time and patience to experiment, rather then to just type :D

Quote: He assures me that this, even after the .25 diamond which was causing me to have too keen a shave, will create a smoother experience. The spritzer is so I can mosten the paper treated CBN strop before use.[QUOTE:]

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David
Just out of curiousity, what kind of paper is on your hanging strop with D-rings? Did you make it or did you buy it? I don't understand what kind of paper it is.

Thanks in advance. I have been using CBN for a few years and it is less harsh than Diamond as you stated.

Same kind of results here over the last few years, but with 0.125 CBN on a rigid paddle covered with roo skin. Seems like you can do a large number of passes on it without the edge dropping off - it reaches a degree of smoothness, then stays there.

Also like stated above, I use a mister to dampen the CBN - unless it is freshly sprayed of course.

I don't use it all the time - a small percentage of the time, to be honest - as the edge of the SG20k or a good thuringian is plenty smooth enough for me.

Regards,
Neil

Great stuff

I have been hearing about CBN for ages, never tried it. What I fail to understand, is how can it, or any abrasive no matter how mild, improve an edge that is already honed and stropped on diamond, to the extent that your Boker test razor is ? It just seems to me that the edge would begin to become to thin at the apex and begin to fail. If not immediately upon meeting up with the whiskers, sooner than if it had been honed to a point where it was a smooth shaver and left at that ?

I'm not being a critic here, I'm asking an honest question because I don't know, just assuming. I have a 30x eye loupe and a 40x microscope but I don't use the micro much anymore and it is not equal to these higher power USB style gizmos. So I don't fool with the close up views that some of our members check out their edges with. It just seems to me that honing and then stropping an edge the way you've described would end up being too much of a good thing ? Anyone have any thoughts on that one way or the other ? :confused:

FWIW there is a guy, japanese, who hones kamisori. Forgotten his name, unfortunately. As he finishes, he uses paste/powder or an abrasive of some kind. The idea is to get rid of any trace of a 'false edge' or what I suppose we would term a microscopic micro-burr. Then he goes back to the finishing hone for a few more swipes.

I have seen such an edge - a 'false edge' to use his words - myself, only it does not look like a 'fin', 'foil; or burr, it just looks like a regular edge. I guess that is because it is so small. It only reveals itself during stropping or shaving by breaking up and deflecting. It is much smaller/finer than the fin produced by over-honing. It is not always there either. But when it is, CBN (or another abrasive) clears it up and is quicker than running the edge through horn or cork (or going mad and running it over the edge of a bit of glass), dropping down a hone or two and working back up again.

I always inspect the edge under a 20x loupe during, before and after stropping. If the edge looks like it has a lot of really tiny micro-chips, then greater mag usually identifies either the presence of a false edge (a barely discernible line down to where the pitting is) or, on the other hand, if there is no trace of a false edge then it is the steel that is poor.

It doesn't occur all the time, of course, in fact it hardly happens - to me, at any rate.

But in this case I think going to the compound achieves what that old japanese kamisori honer was getting at.

Whether that is truly the case or not doesn't really bother me - only the results do, and I have experimented enough over the years with CBN to know that it works for me when needed (as it does with other abrasives like chrome-oxide, cerium oxide, stannous oxide, etc).

If the steel is not good enough to sustain such an attenuated edge, then of course CBN (or any other fine abrasive) will not help. It doesn't help much with an honest-to-goodness foil-edge caused by over-honing, either, as far as I know.

Regards,
Neil

Jerry,

I just noticed your sig. line:

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JERRY
Hair straight back, Balls on fire, baby!!!

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Sounds painful! I'd go see the doc about that, he might be able to prescribe some soothing cream...

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Jerry,

I just noticed your sig. line:



Sounds painful! I'd go see the doc about that, he might be able to prescribe some soothing cream...


Regards,
Neil

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________________________________________________

Neil

I'm a masochist. Leave me in peace...................:chapeau

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

________________________________________________

Neil

I'm a masochist. Leave me in peace...................:chapeau

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Might call for a shingles vaccination ? :D

Interesting test! I'll be sure to check back on this one. For those of us not aware, what is CBN?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by str8fencer

Interesting test! I'll be sure to check back on this one. For those of us not aware, what is CBN?

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I thought it was "Christian Broadcast Network" started by Jim and Tammy Baker. By the way, you could probably hone a razor with Tammy's make up kit.

I'm with Glen I like these experiments too. Every time I hone I strop and shave first, then I do CBN and shave, to gauge the difference, either left and right side of the face or two days in a row.
The level to which CBN improves the feel varies, but has always improved the shaves for me nonetheless.
I like your experiment though of comparing the two pastes.

Ive been through alot of testing with pastes. They all work though, the most recent was a vintage linen strop with broken jnat slurry. They all add to the edge, but for me anyway they seem mostly unnecessary, YMMV of course. I prefer what I can get off the stone and leather. But thats me, you guys keep plugging, dont let me rain on your parade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by str8fencer

Interesting test! I'll be sure to check back on this one. For those of us not aware, what is CBN?

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Quote:

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Cubic Boron Nitride (CBN) is the second hardest known material after diamond. CBN has high thermal and wear resistance for which it is recommended for honing of hardened steels upto 64 HRC

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Hi all! Wow, I didn't think I would get this kind of a responce! Just got home from a long day of work - I saw the posts comming in during the day on the phone, just didn't have the chance to respond.

Thanks for all the support!! For real.

Ok, what type of paper is the strop? Honestly, I don't know. Short of the member who sent it to me piping up and stating it - it'll be one one the questions I ask him later to report back later.

Otherwise, I am glad to see all the interest. I'll try to be as honest in my evaluation as possible!! I have no preconceived notions :).

Update # 1.

Bahahaha!! My razors are just like my kids!! Always making me look silly. Before today's shave I strop the blade on the .25 diamond, strop on leather, and expect to experience complete and utter uncomfortable keenness! I mean this is my Boker!! A blade that boarders on keen off the rocks!

Smooth!

OK! So I found a blade that likes the .25 diamond! To my complete supprise and dismay as I really want to go at the CBN.

Tomorrow I'll use my Dovo or my Fili - both of those were too keen after the diamond.

Sorry gents - just keeping it real!

Hello to All,

Some time ago (a couple of years ?), Mr Neil Miller kindly gifted me some 0.125 (IIRC) CBN spray :)

Using my Thiers-Issard C135 full-hollow razor, I reset the bevel and used sequence Naniwa SS 1k --> SS 3k --> SS 8k.

I used it in the sequence : ...... finish stone Naniwa SS 12k, 0.5 micron diamond on felt, 0.25 micron on felt, 0.125 micron CBN on hard leather paddle (20 passes).

The edge it left was very nice indeed :)

I then compared it with (having reset the bevel as above) :

....finish stone Naniwa SS 12k, 0.125 micron (using 30 passes).

The edge was indeed very nice again - my chops couldn't really tell the difference from the 'full' diamond and CBN process.

The edge was then finished (with bevel reset as above) to my usual method of :

....finish stone Naniwa SS 12k, 0.5 micron CrOx on hard-leather paddle. (using a fairly large number of passes - ca. 75)

Edge cut ever, ever-so slightly less agrresively than with the CBN, but the 'chop-ometer' still indicated an excellent shave.

As a comprimise, I used the '....finish stone Naniwa SS 12k, 0.125 mircon CBN on hard-leather paddle' until my CBN supply ran out, then went back to finishing with 'CrOx'.

Overalll, I feel the finishing with 0.125 micron CBN was very worthwhile, and had I had a readily available source of CBN, would still be uisng it :)

I think I will order some CBN from the States and take up this finishing method again :)

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by str8fencer

Interesting test! I'll be sure to check back on this one. For those of us not aware, what is CBN?

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Cubic Boron Nitride (CBN) is the next hardest substance on earth compared to diamonds. Comes in a spray for strops.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by earcutter

So if you have read this thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...wool-felt.html

You'll know that I got some .25 diamond spray and threw it on a nice hard pressed felt strop. You'll also know, that I wasn't having too much luck with it - as I felt it made my blades too keen and produced a harsh shave.

OK so I hadn't finished experimenting with the .25, but I got a PM from Marty who said he might be able to help. Since he offered to set me up - how could I say no?

His solution? CBN!

I never tried the stuff, so I was more than glad to give it a shot! His package arrived at my door today. Thanks Marty!!

Attachment 172431

One treated paper strop and a water spritzer.

Here it is hanging on my towel rack.

Attachment 172433

Now I was also given instructions, but for the sake of time, the key things to note is that I am to work my blade on some .25 diamond, but then work the blade over the .5 CBN for a bit, followed by the .125 CBN.

He assures me that this, even after the .25 diamond which was causing me to have too keen a shave, will create a smoother experience. The spritzer is so I can mosten the paper treated CBN strop before use.


To put it all to the test, I have chosen a blade that has always straddled keen just off the stones. I have calmed her down and love the blade, but if this stuff is to do what is claimed, this is the perfect blade to experiment on - that and i know the blade well.

Attachment 172434
The test subject :)

To be fair, I touched up my Boker this evening and just shaved with it - lovely and smooth.

This weekend, I'll apply some .25 diamond to it. I expect it'll be hell. After confirmation of a too keen blade, I'll begin the CRN treatment.

I intend to strop the first day using the CRN with both the .5 and the .125. Then I'll only strop the blade on the .125 for 7 more shaves before seeing how long I can go without any treatments.

It should be fun!!

I am posting now as I go along to bring anyone who's interested along for the ride. That and so I can post when its all fresh in my mind.

I'll report back sometime this weekend. :)

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I use .50 and .25 after honing and think it does a great job.

If you remember a thread I started a few months ago someone on YouTube ("Dr. Matt") recommended these diamond sprays (as fine as .05). He also recommended about 10 laps with a .10 after every shave to prevent honing indefinitely. I tried that (with .25) after every shave and dulled the blade after only a few shaves.

I still use it but only if the blade needs it. You'll find out what works for you through trial and error.

Nice razor. You like the smaller ones like I do.

Update # 2.

Honestly - I don't know what/why I started all this lol!!

I treated my Dovo which proved too keen with the .25 diamond, to the CBN... it was still hell! Except this time I kept on shaving. I'll treat it again next shave, but if I don't notice a difference - that'll be it.

Perhaps my issue is that I should be using these pastes after the blade has degraded a bit after the stones? Not sure if that's it or not, as using a little CrOx after honing seems to work!?

Either way - I'll let you guys know I progress - surely I am doing something wrong - that or my face stops loving anything finer than .5 micron. We'll see :).

Still having fun believe it or not :).

Maybe try a razor that ain't quite there, before the diamond paste. Ya can't quit now, I got popcorn, a big bag.:popcorn: Bigger than my head even.

Update:

Well, its been some time and I feel like I owe you guys who participated an update.

Its been a week or two of some excruciating shaves. But I have come to some conclusions.

I am convinced that going below .5 microns makes a blade crazy sharp. For ME, that increadibe increase in refinement creates an uncomfortable shave.

That said - This makes absolutely no sense to me. Whatsoever lol! Moreover, I feel like I have lost. I feel like I was given a Ferrari, but could only drive it with the skillset of a 16yr old and his Neon!

I HAVE to take a break now though lol! If I keep going, I am going to give up on straights period lol. My face is raw - and that in itself may be the problem :). Actually, there could be so many reasons why this isn't working for me when so many others swear by it... Its mind blowing!

I'll give it all a try again later in the year, but if you are reading this and wondering if you should bother - my answer is a resounding yes! Beyond being flustered that I "lost," I learned a great deal! Truly. That, and I would love to hear how it works for you.

Well David it looks like you might have proved the YMMV Theorem once again :)

Morale of the story: stop the quest for the ultimate sharpness as soon as you get comfortable shaves.

I don’t know that CBN results in more sharpness, but more comfort. CBN is aggressive and is removing steel as seen in stria removal from the bevel and a straighter edge.

Used post diamond it makes an edge much more comfortable. I also have used it as Neil describes while honing, stropping between finishing stones with good results.

I would be interested in seeing the edge on Earcutter’s razor and to see what it looked like pre and post diamond. I would recommend trying it on another razor to eliminate the razor as an issue.

The strops I use and sent to Earcutter is made from Pellon, a fabric type paper used in the garment industry as a stiffener for shirt collars and plackets. It is a random weave, very smooth and strong, similar to Tyvek. The random weave holds the spray evenly and well, more importantly it can be wet and dries quickly without mold. CBN performs very differently (better) on a damp strop, don’t know why.

Pellon is available at fabric stores for about a dollar or two per yard, making the cost of a strop, pennies.
I have used .10 CBN for maintenance, but prefer the .125 for daily use and .50 post diamond or Chrome Oxide to smooth the edge and finish honing.

Performance wise I would rate it as Cerium on steroids, achieving similar result to many laps of Cerium. The varied grits allows you to dial in results from polishing/smoothing a harsh edge to daily maintenance.

As with anything YMMV depending on any number of variables, not magic… just another shot in the quiver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I don’t know that CBN results in more sharpness, but more comfort. CBN is aggressive and is removing steel as seen in stria removal from the bevel and a straighter edge.

Used post diamond it makes an edge much more comfortable. I also have used it as Neil describes while honing, stropping between finishing stones with good results.

I would be interested in seeing the edge on Earcutter’s razor and to see what it looked like pre and post diamond. I would recommend trying it on another razor to eliminate the razor as an issue.

The strops I use and sent to Earcutter is made from Pellon, a fabric type paper used in the garment industry as a stiffener for shirt collars and plackets. It is a random weave, very smooth and strong, similar to Tyvek. The random weave holds the spray evenly and well, more importantly it can be wet and dries quickly without mold. CBN performs very differently (better) on a damp strop, don’t know why.

Pellon is available at fabric stores for about a dollar or two per yard, making the cost of a strop, pennies.
I have used .10 CBN for maintenance, but prefer the .125 for daily use and .50 post diamond or Chrome Oxide to smooth the edge and finish honing.

Performance wise I would rate it as Cerium on steroids, achieving similar result to many laps of Cerium. The varied grits allows you to dial in results from polishing/smoothing a harsh edge to daily maintenance.

As with anything YMMV depending on any number of variables, not magic… just another shot in the quiver.

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Well let's not forget my Boker loved the CBN just fine! My Dovo, Fili, and Revisor didn't. Its not over - I just had to take a break.

What's interesting me the most is - of the razors that didn't like it, under the loop, the edges look spectacular! That and even though my face began to feel "raw" - the Alum never stung! Truly - its not something I have ever run into before!

I don't pretend to be a honemister, so there's a ton of things I could be doing wrong. But I refuse to give up lol! That said, give me some time to figure things out. I might send my Dovo to you for finishing to see if it's me.

In the keen time... I mean, in the mean time lol - I just got inspired to try it on my Kami!

I'll let you know :)

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Originally Posted by Kees

Morale of the story: stop the quest for the ultimate sharpness as soon as you get comfortable shaves.

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Precisely. I have been an advocate of the 8k shave for quite some time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I don’t know that CBN results in more sharpness, but more comfort. CBN is aggressive and is removing steel as seen in stria removal from the bevel and a straighter edge.

Used post diamond it makes an edge much more comfortable. I also have used it as Neil describes while honing, stropping between finishing stones with good results.

I would be interested in seeing the edge on Earcutter’s razor and to see what it looked like pre and post diamond. I would recommend trying it on another razor to eliminate the razor as an issue.

The strops I use and sent to Earcutter is made from Pellon, a fabric type paper used in the garment industry as a stiffener for shirt collars and plackets. It is a random weave, very smooth and strong, similar to Tyvek. The random weave holds the spray evenly and well, more importantly it can be wet and dries quickly without mold. CBN performs very differently (better) on a damp strop, don’t know why.

Pellon is available at fabric stores for about a dollar or two per yard, making the cost of a strop, pennies.
I have used .10 CBN for maintenance, but prefer the .125 for daily use and .50 post diamond or Chrome Oxide to smooth the edge and finish honing.

Performance wise I would rate it as Cerium on steroids, achieving similar result to many laps of Cerium. The varied grits allows you to dial in results from polishing/smoothing a harsh edge to daily maintenance.

As with anything YMMV depending on any number of variables, not magic… just another shot in the quiver.

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Thanks Marty!

Marty also gifted me with the same setup. I have to say that for me at least it does make for a more comfortable edge.

I can compare it to Crox after a good hone, however I use the CBN when the edge just needs a touch up. It brings the edge back without being too keen.

As has been said sometimes YMMV.

I agree with mrsell63. Using microscopes on razors seems to much for me. I like the simplicity of straight razor shaving, compared to other forms of wet shaving.

Also I think that some tests and expressed opinions leaves out vital information.

How often do you shave? Is it everyday?
How many passes do you use? WTG, XTG and ATG?

What shaving soap is used?

What do you use as aftershave treatment?

All this is IMHO crucial for the result of a great comfortable shave.

I shave everyday. All three passes with a little touchup on the chin.
I use Mitchell wool fat.
After the shave I use Avene aftershave balm.

I use a wide range of razors myself. German, Swedish, Danish, English.

I find that English razors are best on coticule as a finisher, while most German works best with my Escher hones.

As strops I tried both red and black Dovos, and I have also made experiments with the Tormek polishing paste.

For maintaining an edge I normally just use 15 strokes on black dovo and 30 on plain leather.

My edge holds comfortable shaves 6-7 times.

I think that's because the skin is really sensitive when shaving everyday. It demands higher levels of smoothness of the edge.

Shaving every second day, would make the edge holds up to 15 times.

Shaving every day mixing with a straight and DE razor makes the edge hold a month for me.

To touch up the edge I only do 15 - 20 light strokes on the preferred finisher. Always with light slurry.

I think this is close to what the barbers of old time did.

I really love to know how often you shave and how many passes. If you shave like me and the CBN makes the edge last longer, I'm in for a try :-)

Shave every day, 2 with, 1 against, 1 water cleanup, a variety of soaps, a rotation of about 40 razors all makes all grinds. 10-15 min shaves.

Yes, a CBN maintenance can keep me shaving comfortably indefinitely, so can Cerium and Chrome Oxide. Shave off the .125 CBN strop, no leather.

Have done long term test (multiple months with same razor) and got tired of it, as have others.

Enjoy

I think when I get back to it I'll forgo the diamond and see how it works out.