Help with linen coating

Finally goty dubl duck strop and have separated the linen and leather. I soaked the linen same as normal aand today cave it a scrub with a nylon brush to get the dirt off. This strop seems to have been completely coated in paste so thick itvwss filling the weave and when I started scrubbing it came out in a chalky powder in the water. The strop under is a greeny color so I am presuming flax line. My problem now is a patchy strop some white from the coat left on it but now clean and some bare linen without sny coating. The best outcome would be to find out what the coating is amd reapply which is why I sm posting. Sny advice fro you strop guru's would deffdefinitely be grest right now. Here's a photo so you can see what I mean. Thanks Ed

Attachment 204725

Hi,

It does not look like linen to me, more like cotton/canvas, possibly tubular weave.

The green stuff caked on it looks like too much green chrome dioxide.

I would use soap suds and plenty of warm water. Too much or too vigorous use of a scrubbing brush will affect the cotton, giving a bobbly or furry finish, so a gentle kneading is preferred.

You will have to do this a fair number of times - as long as there is a green tinge there will be some abrasive left, but it will be such a small amount that it will barely matter, especially as chrome dioxide is very fine.

Be prepared for the cotton to shrink a bit - using warm rather than hot water followed by slow drying will minimise the effect.

Don't expect miracles ( personally I would throw it).

Good luck,
Neil.

Hi,
Keep scrubbing.
The fabric component is a tubular greenish cotton weave. ( cotton fire hose, without rubber.) That is the one Randydancer is in love with. It was used on quite a few top end strops.

Pasting was done by various folks to save a razor's shaving quality till it would no longer do its job. If you wish to paste it again, there are a few linen pastes still available (Dovo White Paste) This has no abrasive particles.The other no band white tube strop paste is a white oxide paste with a superfine abrasive particles in it; available at times on the 'Bay.

Most are made up of Kaolin Clay, water soluble glue, Bluing, some fatty substance (tallow), and white soap (soft soap), and often the addition of a natural gum ( sap).
Needless to say the usual recipes are for making about a half gallon of the stuff, as I found out. my source was a 1788 treatis which i have since lost.
Abrasives such as diamond powder, talc, ffff emery, rouge, Lead oxide, other oxides, and CBN may be added to the mix after first mixing and settling.

~Richard

Thanks Geezer that gives me a bit more of an idea what might have original been in it. Neil it is a dubl duck linen. It was a silk finish one and was completely white but was a bot dirty and the green is actually where the white coating has come off revealing green linen. It probably wouldn't be that green but it was wet when I took the photo. The white on the strop is the coating still left on it. I added another photo now I've dried it and with the strop. Your input is always greatly appreciated.Attachment 204730Attachment 204731

Thanks for the new photos! The leather looks to be in great condition just hand rub it for a couple days before using it. You can use the fabric component as you have it. If the coating darkens with use, The original paste was the abrasive one. The darkening is the abrasive removing a fine layer of steel.
~Richard

Use it as it is and see how it works. It's a shame that some of it came off, but I don't see much reason to change it if it still improves a razor.

I don't know what chance you have of making a concoction that will be similar to the original (which has aged a fair amount).

I have the same hard linen back on the Dubl Duck strop I restored.

The linen component is very hard, obviously impregnated with something, may be cerium, very similar to my Illinois 827.

The leather took awhile to bring back, many rubbings with Fromm's Strop treatment, and it is still quite hard.

Here's mine after cleaning, came out beautifully white when it dried, pic isn't that great:

Attachment 204744

I CraftySister'ed a filthy linen strop - it needed a few cycles but it worked a charm. Scars to stars. Ended up snow white, stain free, no fraying, [peprfect texture, no cupping - patted dry, hug it up and it stayed flat as a pancake. I note mine had no nomenclature inked on the linen.

How to Clean Vintage Linens | the crafty sisters

Lots more Phrank and Geezer here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ml#post1450684

Thanks for all the replies. Geezer I had finished touching up the srstrop by the stage I took the picture but it really didn't need much. Guess I will have to give it a shot and see how it goes. Hopefully one day may find a way to fix it. The back side didn't loose as much so might give it a try.

Thanks for the extra info and pictures. I did not know that this Shamrock Brand was a linen strop - I have not seen one photo of the mark with with anything but "Shamrock Brand Fine Weave Silk Finish on it, though I suppose that barbers manuals of the time would serve to identify what Dubl Duck called it.

Attachment 204818

Attachment 204819

The following, along with some of the cotton backed strops I have seen (cannot find a pic) are marked with what they are:

Attachment 204820

Dubl Duck were importers by the way and it is possible that they made nothing at all. But their products were excellent indeed.

What seems clear from this is that we do not have a tubular weave cotton firehose.

The Shamrock brand on the other hand was a firmly established business in Ireland (hence 'shamrock') and they describe this material in one advert as marked and available in 10ft lengths to the public, describing it as 'bleached linen cambric', cambric deriving from the french town where it was originally made in the 1700s. At that time it was made from linen, calendered and glazed, though later on both linen and cotton materials were described as cambric.

Thanks again for correcting me - just goes to show that you learn something everyday and what a fine resource SRP is.

Regards,
Neil

Here's one thing I tried, as suggested by Bart Torfs a few years ago. It works very nicely, although it has been a while (too long) since I tried:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart Torfs at coticule.be

Sidewalk chalk, aka calcium sulfate, aka plaster of Paris, aka gypsum (it's all the same) works [...], as long as you make sure to use white, non-colored quality. The trick is to paint the strop with lather, and rub it with the chalk until the pores are completely clogged. (work it in with your fingers). Dry with a hairdryer. Make your fingers greasy with strop dressing, or with mineral oil, and massage the surface of the strop. Allow to dry overnight. Brush lightly to remove excess dust. This will give you a great surface to strop on, that behaves the same like a linen strop that was filled with a tube of Dovo white (Dovo white Is to be used abundant, the idea is to clog the pores of the fabric).
Kind regards,

Bart.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Thanks for the extra info and pictures. I did not know that this Shamrock Brand was a linen strop - I have not seen one photo of the mark with with anything but "Shamrock Brand Fine Weave Silk Finish on it, though I suppose that barbers manuals of the time would serve to identify what Dubl Duck called it.

Attachment 204818

Attachment 204819

The following, along with some of the cotton backed strops I have seen (cannot find a pic) are marked with what they are:

Attachment 204820

Dubl Duck were importers by the way and it is possible that they made nothing at all. But their products were excellent indeed.

What seems clear from this is that we do not have a tubular weave cotton firehose.

The Shamrock brand on the other hand was a firmly established business in Ireland (hence 'shamrock') and they describe this material in one advert as marked and available in 10ft lengths to the public, describing it as 'bleached linen cambric', cambric deriving from the french town where it was originally made in the 1700s. At that time it was made from linen, calendered and glazed, though later on both linen and cotton materials were described as cambric.

Thanks again for correcting me - just goes to show that you learn something everyday and what a fine resource SRP is.

Regards,
Neil

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Neil it doesn't state that it is linen but it is exactly the same as a Irish linen that I have except that the Irish linen isn't coated and is white by itself. I assumed and may be wrong that from the colour it was a flax linen that has been coated and impregnated with this dressing and that the dressing itself is what they may be referrinding to as the silk finish. As I said I could be wrong but once the coating of paste is removed it comes up that greeny colour and the weave is revealed

Pithor I have just gotten some tube webbing last week so I might play with this and if all goes well apply to the strop. Cheers

So since I am looking to do this I thought I would do it right anf find a pure powder to apply to the strop. Kremer Pigments has calcium carbonate that is 99.6 percent pure. My question is will the particle size matter as it does with other powders we apply to strops. It is rated at 1.3mic which is still pretty fine bit larger than others I have. Richard I was also thinking that as you said in your post that gum or glue might be a good additive as well to help with adhesion and longevity. Is there anything you would reccomend and any sources for tallow. Cheers for all the help

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddy79

...snip...Richard I wad also thinking tjst ad you said in your post yhst gum or glue might be a good additive ad well to help with adhesion and longevity. Is there anything you would reccomend and any sources for tallow. Cheers for all the help

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I cannot help you there. I used the old time recipe and made a bunch but there were specific quantities. I like Pithor's method. I've known him for a lot of years.
~Richard

So I take it Dovo white paste is essentially chalk and soap? Thats what it feels like when I spread it on the fabric but it also seems to dry well. I really like it for the treatment of my firehose strops. I wish the stuff would come in toothpaste sized tubes. I have to give that recipe Pithor referenced a try it sounds great. I wonder if talc could be substituted for chalk or would that be too abrasive?

True talc is less abrasive than chalk. From memory talc is pretty much the lowest on the mohs scale

FWW
Here is the same material as that which was used in my Pearl Duck Shamrock Silk Finish Strop. No country of origin was on either the leather or fabric. It is much darker green when damp,
Attachment 205101
I sold that DD strop recently after doing a reclamation of the materials.
~Richard

Richard that looks very sImilar to mine without the paste. Is that after yours was cleaned or was it originally like that. Mine doesn't actually mention a country of origin just brands

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddy79

Richard that looks very sImilar to mine without the paste. Is that after yours was cleaned or was it originally like that. Mine doesn't actually mention a country of origin just brands

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I've had two Shamrock strops and some other branded strops using, essentially, this material and cleaned and re pasted them. A friend has accumulated a lot of older strop materials in rolls and this is one that was very common in high end strops. There are quite a few differing materials that were commonly used.
~Richard

Found it! Over the last few years it is a great strop dressing. A bit dusty at first but wears in well. I later added a bit more tallow soft soap. Mixed in a slow cooker I have enough for a couple generations.

A combination of the two formulas:
From: Standing Orders, Forms of Returns, Reports, Entries, etc. of the Queen's Dragoons Guards; 1795 -
"Take 6 pounds of the finest pipe-clay, pound it very small, put it in a tub, and put to it about 5 gallons of cold water. Let it remain for two or three days, stirring it now and then. Then take 6 ounces of gum dragon, and put it into 4 quarts of boiling water, and cover it up close for two or three days. When the gum is well dissolved, take a fine hair sieve, and strain it into the pipe-clay, and keep stirring the pipe-clay well all the time you are doing this. Then take half an ounce of stone blue, and dissolve it well amongst your colouring (this gives a clear gloss to the belts). Let it all remain one day longer, and it will be fit for use, putting it on lightly and evenly with a sponge."

1788 Strop Formula reduced amounts

From: The Discipline of the Light Horse by Capt. Hinde, 1778 (pg 559) -
"A Receipt for the White Belts. Take 1 ½ lb of Pipe-clay, 3 Quarts of Water, ¼ lb of Best Glue, ¼ lb of White Soap, Boil the Soap and Glue first, till dissolved, then Mix it with the Pipe-Clay, and Boil all together for a Quarter of an Hour; when Cold put it on a with a Sponge in the usual manner, and when Dry Rub it with a Glass-Bottle."
20%

*12 OZ. pipe cLAY

*1.5 QUARTS WATER

*1 oz fish glue

*1 oz tallow soap...more added later
Added from the later recipe to the early recipe while mixing...
+ 1 oz. Liquid laundry bluing..UV whitening agent (stone blue)

+ 1 oz. of Gum Tagacanth (Leather sealant)

Modern equivalents
From the 1795 formula, to the above, I added the:
Stone Blue, 1 0z....modern day clothes bluing for whitening.
Gum Tragacanth....Eco-Flo Gum Tragacanth; used in leather working as an edge sealant

Pipe Clay is now Finest Ball clay..like porcelain clay

Adding a abrasive later and mixing it in well while warm will work. I have tried a couple with small batches of the original mix. Here you are on your own.

Have fun!
~Richard
PS. After mixing store the mass in a seal able covered container with a plastic wrap pressed firmly onto the surface to prevent deterioration..mold growth, etc.

Richard this is fantastic thanks very much. The tallow or white soap did you use body or shaving soap for this. I think this is going to be bigger than I originally thought but I suppose once done I will have enough for my lifetime so should be worth the effort. Do you think a preserving jar with the rubber seals would be fine to keep it in. Maybe you should add this to the library. This is something im sure would be helpful to others in the future

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddy79

Richard this is fantastic thanks very much. The tallow or white soap did you use body or shaving soap for this. I think this is going to be bigger than I originally thought but I suppose once done I will have enough for my lifetime so should be worth the effort. Do you think a preserving jar with the rubber seals would be fine to keep it in. Maybe you should add this to the library. This is something im sure would be helpful to others in the future

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I used an old tallow soap from an antiques store. Any tallow soap would be fine. I use a large preserving jar similar to what you ask. Still like any spoilable wet material, it does need to be protected from ambient air. So that is the reason for the "saran" wrap on the surface. I did this exercise for a buddy that wanted to go into the strop business a few years back.
Have fun!! A "Goodwill" used crock pot works a treat for this kind of crazyness!!
~Richard

Thanks Richard. At this point the ball clay might be the hardest part to track down. They seem to come in various mixtures as it isn't a pure clay but a mix and everything I have seen so far is for bulk amounts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddy79

Thanks Richard. At this point the ball clay might be the hardest part to track down. They seem to come in various mixtures as it isn't a pure clay but a mix and everything I have seen so far is for bulk amounts.

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Most any town now has an art or craft pottery. They may be able to help. I had to buy 5 pounds on line from a pottery supply house.
~Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Found it! Over the last few years it is a great strop dressing. A bit dusty at first but wears in well. I later added a bit more tallow soft soap. Mixed in a slow cooker I have enough for a couple generations.

A combination of the two formulas:
From: Standing Orders, Forms of Returns, Reports, Entries, etc. of the Queen's Dragoons Guards; 1795 -
"Take 6 pounds of the finest pipe-clay, pound it very small, put it in a tub, and put to it about 5 gallons of cold water. Let it remain for two or three days, stirring it now and then. Then take 6 ounces of gum dragon, and put it into 4 quarts of boiling water, and cover it up close for two or three days. When the gum is well dissolved, take a fine hair sieve, and strain it into the pipe-clay, and keep stirring the pipe-clay well all the time you are doing this. Then take half an ounce of stone blue, and dissolve it well amongst your colouring (this gives a clear gloss to the belts). Let it all remain one day longer, and it will be fit for use, putting it on lightly and evenly with a sponge."

1788 Strop Formula reduced amounts

From: The Discipline of the Light Horse by Capt. Hinde, 1778 (pg 559) -
"A Receipt for the White Belts. Take 1 ½ lb of Pipe-clay, 3 Quarts of Water, ¼ lb of Best Glue, ¼ lb of White Soap, Boil the Soap and Glue first, till dissolved, then Mix it with the Pipe-Clay, and Boil all together for a Quarter of an Hour; when Cold put it on a with a Sponge in the usual manner, and when Dry Rub it with a Glass-Bottle."
20%

*12 OZ. pipe cLAY

*1.5 QUARTS WATER

*1 oz fish glue

*1 oz tallow soap...more added later
Added from the later recipe to the early recipe while mixing...
+ 1 oz. Liquid laundry bluing..UV whitening agent (stone blue)

+ 1 oz. of Gum Tagacanth (Leather sealant)

Modern equivalents
From the 1795 formula, to the above, I added the:
Stone Blue, 1 0z....modern day clothes bluing for whitening.
Gum Tragacanth....Eco-Flo Gum Tragacanth; used in leather working as an edge sealant

Pipe Clay is now Finest Ball clay..like porcelain clay

Adding a abrasive later and mixing it in well while warm will work. I have tried a couple with small batches of the original mix. Here you are on your own.

Have fun!
~Richard
PS. After mixing store the mass in a seal able covered container with a plastic wrap pressed firmly onto the surface to prevent deterioration..mold growth, etc.

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if I have it right you have made both of these individually. To the first you added soap and to the second you added the gum and the stone blue. If this is correct only the second has glue in it that would be a different ingredient, Which therefore do you find to be closest to the original coatings found on these strops. And I was wrong it turns out everything is hard to get and will probably need to be ordered online. The ball clay I might be able to get but it seems to come in different varieties and am trying to figure out which will be the finest. Did you pound the ball clay as mentioned in the recipe or was it used as is. Also looking at the glue recipe it says glue amount by weight. Would this be the old hide glue which was a dry product which you just added water to when needed. From my research it was pretty common and was stored as granuls or sheets and made up as needed so would have been readily available

Seriously modified!

"Take 1lb,3oz of the finest pipe-clay, and put to it about 32oz. of cold water. I used a sealable canister of about half gallon size. Let it remain for two or three days, stirring it now and then. Then take .6 oz ounces of gum dragon, and put it into 1pint of boiling water, I then poured it into a glass canister with a sealed lid. and covered it up close for two or three days.
Place the soaked clay and its extra water into a 6 quart crock pot and bring to a slow boil for a half hour. At this point, I also added the half ounce of Fish Glue. Add the gum mix to the bubbling pipe-clay, and keep stirring the pipe-clay well all the time you are doing this. Then take half an ounce of stone blue, (Laundry blueing)and dissolve it well amongst your colouring (this gives a clear white gloss to the belts). At this point i added the bar and a half of finely ground ( dust!) bar soap, it was a double tallow hard soap. I let it burble for a couple more hours and then used the stick blender as it boiled on low heat. I put the mix back into the half gallon canister after it had cooled.. Let it all remain in there a couple days longer. Then I stick blended it again while it was cold. And that made it better and fit for use. Put it on lightly and evenly with a sponge, or i inch brush and bottling it in."
This is is the 10% batch that I made. I used a 6 quart crock pot to heat and to a low boil and add the ingredients to the already soaked clay and water.
PIPE CLAY
Fine ball clay no iron
Clay bodies
Continental Clay
Ceramic Pottery Supplies Equipment Wheels Kilns - Continental Clay Co
Clay & Glaze Chemicals ... Continental Clay •
1101 Stinson Blvd Minneapolis, MN 55413
(612) 331-9332
Found the gum: Eco-Flo Gum Tragacanth
Tandy Leather - Eco-Flo Gum Tragacanth

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tandy-Leathe...-/370585102239
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Thanks. Very seriously modified. The gum of the period also seems likley to have been a powder or flakes and that would be why it needed dissolving and straining. The eco flo is an already re hydrated product so shouldn't need dissolving and may affect the volume it swells as it is hydrated and in the original recipe the 6 oz in 4 quarts of water may have make the equivalent of 4 quarts of eco flo? The glue coming as a dry not a liquid may have had a similar volume discrepancy compared to a fluid version. I think I may have to buy ss original as possible make both individually check performance and modify from there I will just scale back the amounts to make small amounts. I think this is a rabbit hole I should have left alone.

More research and from the 16th century through to beginning of the 18th century seems white soap was a vegetable soap make from olive oil and was also known as castile soap. Stone blue also makes me think they would have used a rock style blueing which is actually blue iron oxide. The liquid stuff is a suspended powder but blocks aslo used to be available so that would fit with them using a weight measure for that too. At least I think I have figured out the ingredients now just to get them all. I think fixing this strop may cost me twice what the strop did.

Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28fabric%29
Blue colorings have been added to rinse water for centuries, first in the form of powder blue or smalt, or using small lumps of indigo and starch, called stone blue.
Bluing is usually sold in liquid form, but it may also be a solid. Solid bluing is sometimes used by hoodoo doctors to provide the blue color needed for "mojo hands" without having to use the toxic compound copper sulfate. Bluing was also used by some Native American Tribes to mark their arrows showing tribe ownership.[citation needed]
Laundry bluing is made of a very fine blue iron powder suspended in water (a colloidal suspension).
I used Mrs Stewarts. It may still be found in antique stores. Usually about $9 for a partially full pint bottle.
~Richard
PS The Brits didn't use Rockets til about 1806 or so. So this is not rocket science.
I used a no-iron clay body, a simple old hard double tallow soap from a junk store. Mrs Stewart's Bluing, fish glue from an art store.
The Crock pot evaporated all the extra moisture after the clay had absorbed all the water it could. Then, adding the other ingredients was easy and extra time got rid of any extra water. The stuff is about the same consistency as a good mustard sauce or a bit thicker.

Richard Wikipedia has been where I have found most of my information going from link to link. Mrs stewards is still available on ebay new. My idea was to stick as close to original as it removes the factor that i have no clue where these ppeople obviously did. If making in micro batches it shouldn't take long and once I have a baseline I can modify from there. I already have a few razors awaiting my attentions so I can spend a while playing with this. Thank you for your time and knowledge here it has been a great guidance

It was a fun project and can have a lot of possibilities later. Enjoy the journey!:chapeau
~Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddy79

Richard Wikipedia has been where I have found most of my information going from link to link. Mrs stewards is still available on ebay new. My idea was to stick as close to original as it removes the factor that i have no clue where these ppeople obviously did. If making in micro batches it shouldn't take long and once I have a baseline I can modify from there. I already have a few razors awaiting my attentions so I can spend a while playing with this. Thank you for your time and knowledge here it has been a great guidance

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Seems all ball clay is not created equal. That in America and England are the finest and the stuff mined in Australia not so much. 1 lady told me today it is quite fine around 200 mesh (7 5 micron ). When I asked if it was likely if anyone imported it she said it was unlikely as we have local stuff and that she had never heard of anyone importing it and I think her website said she has been doing it 30 years. I think I will have to import directly from America to get a fine ball clay. Think that the postage for 5 pounds worth is really going to sting but there is no way I am going to use anything even remotely close to 200 mesh when the one from America is mostly below .5 micron from memory

Richard a little more of the puzzle today found by chance


Blue colorings have been added to rinse water for centuries, first in the form of powder blue or smalt, or using small lumps of indigo and starch, called stone blue. "

Seems that the current blueing and stone blue are different products entirely.

Yes, and the new bluing works well also and is a lot easier to duplicate.. Could be the little blue bits like broken of Hershey Bar of my youth were of that variety.
Keep on keepin' on!
~Richard
PS. You are trying to exactly duplicate a belt dressing made for military cross belts and gaiters of the 18th century. It was not specifically intended for razor strops.

The nice thing is that it, a similar not exact conglomeration, has worked for that usage for a few years for me; and it may be duplicated with modern supplies.

The main problem is nothing is easily accessible and it is going to be quite costly to amass everything even using modern equivalents. Atm I'm temped to just get true pure chalk from Kremer and use that and be done with it as it would be much easier and cost a fraction of the price. this strop would also be from a time period where chalk was likley and additive. Maybe a mix of newer ingredients and older techniques. I like some of the older base ingredients and may use them with chalk

If you haven't noticed I tend to research throughly before making decisions. Often a frustrating exercise :gaah:

crushed and pounded soapstone was, it is said, a slightly abrasive ingredient also in some strop dressings.
~Richard

I think there are enough rabbit holes already in this project. Then depending on who you speak to depends on what they refer to as soapstone. The barber I know is about 70 and apprenticed under his dad also a barber and he refers to coticules as soapstones probably as he uses it with soap as his father taught him. At this stage maybe chalk, some wax substance and some flexible adhesive and something if it needed thinning would probably reasonably resemble what was on there