The alchemy of honing, solved with a CBN paper strop progression!

Dear Gents;

I have been cracking my brain enough!

Some of you understand exactly what i am talking about. Reading and re-reading words on honing, trying to extract hidden meaning to simple words. The learning curve is so steep!!! Of course, we all have made progress. A very tiny bit at a time!

Then a mentor comes along. In this case it is Euclid440 (Marty). I posted a thread about diamond paste and how to use it. He came in with a ton of advice and 4 strops in the mail. One of them is a paper strop. It was empty, for me to experiment with diamond paste. This alone would have been a BIG leap forward. This ´paper´ is the material used between the fabric of a suit and the inner linings. It is delicate, yet it is strong enough for stropping. It made me realize how delicate is the edge of a razor. And i really mean it. The petal of a rose would take ten times more abuse.

The second strop is made of something he calls sailcloth. I have been sailing all my life. No sail ever has been made out of it. But, it is used in the marine industry -since the sixties- to do everything that has to do with repelling UV rays. Dodgers, awnings, biminis, etc... It is a material that i think will do what a firehose do, but in a micro level. Simply put, its a lot more delicate. It has .5 CROX on one side and marine polish on the other. 40 strops on each side removed all micro chips in all my blades.

The other two strops are paper, previously mentioned. One side has .5 micron CBN. The other has .25. The other .125. And the last has .10.

There is no way to describe his generosity, except to tell it how it went.

I went through all my blades: Ralph Aust 7/8. Dovo Bismarck. Boker Elite. Thiers Issard Basic. Early Wade and Butcher. Geneva Pyramid. And Kanetaka kamisori. They were maintained with the stones i have: 1K, 4K and 8K Norton, 10K Naniwa, and 16K Shapton. After that i used to strop them in .5 diamond spray on Lynn´s paddle strop on linen, and then on both leathers. They were good. Now they are on another level. Not only the keeness and the smoothness. What i believe is this system strongest point is the easy it is! There are no secrets. Twenty laps each side are you are done! Ten laps every shave on the .10 up to now have resulted perfectly for me.

I wouldn't believe it myself at first. So i took out my daughter´s biology lab microscope. Yes. All my blades had micro chips. Now they don't. All are stria free. At 450X, a microscope tell no lies. Then i thought that some of my blades would not keep such a keen edge. Well, so far the do.

There will be many nay sayers: give it a try! I would not go any other way.

Best regards,

Pepe Peña

I dunno about the sail cloth or pellon paper. Not to deride them, simply can't comment because I've yet to give them a shot. But I did put some .25 CBN on the back of poly webbing. The front has .50 Chrome Ox.

I didn't think I would like it. The edge off a synthetic is often too keen and uncomfortable. My experience with Chrome Ox, which only makes the blade keener still, was that it didn't help a whole lot in the comfort area. CBN not only took the edge to a new level of keenness, but it also made a harsh synthetic edge comfortable enough to shave with.

I have some .1 micron FeOx coming in today. But I have a feeling I'm going to be relegating that to pocket and kitchen knife service, then investing in another strop for finer grit CBN. Maybe next go around it'll be sail cloth or Pellon paper.

dear marshal;

i would certainly understand if you don't put your razors through .1. I did. it works for me. maybe your skin is more sensitive, or your whiskers tougher. maybe. the thing is that it worked for me. maybe looking at the edges before and after, through a 450X microscope helped me with some extra courage. i like it, maybe because i use DE and SEs some times.

guys; i am not trying to sell anything. it is just giving my experience some air. maybe, someone will say: what the heck. lets give it a try. if that ever happens, i will be happy about it for all time. its just my way of honoring Euclid440´s generosity. i know hi-grit is something that does not sticks in this forum. we don't have to agree in everything, do we? thats the beauty of the forum: we can share with respect for one another.

pellon is really cheap. just a couple of pennies. the sunbrella you can have for nothing at any canvas shop. sure they have enough scraps for all of us for until the end of time. the jobs they do require big chunks of it. they always end up with many many scraps that are just perfect for us.

i bid you good luck with your experiments,

pepe peña

Not sure I get it. How do you make the paper strop? And how do you do it for normal stropping? You said ten laps on the 0.1 (paper with 0.1 diamond?)? No leather?

Anyway, I think it confirms something I suspected: razors don't actually need the teeth some people talk about. They need to be very sharp (obviously), and otherwise as smooth as possible. Of course, if you magnify high enough, any edge will look like it has teeth I suppose.

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Originally Posted by trondsi

Not sure I get it. How do you make the paper strop? And how do you do it for normal stropping? You said ten laps on the 0.1 (paper with 0.1 diamond?)? No leather?

Anyway, I think it confirms something I suspected: razors don't actually need the teeth some people talk about. They need to be very sharp (obviously), and otherwise as smooth as possible. Of course, if you magnify high enough, any edge will look like it has teeth I suppose.

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In response to question about making the strop. Not 100% sure but I have a feeling this is vey similar to the fabric/paper strop. This is the sail cloth material Marty uses for CRoX. I couldn't find the full post where he explains making it (lots of details and pics)

I'm sure we'll hear from Marty at some point.

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To bond the material once it goes through the D ring he uses a material for hemming that bonds fabric with use of an iron. You can find in the fabric department at Wal Mart or any fabric store (my moms called it "Stitch Witchery"). Kind of like the old iron on patches for jeans.

Hope this helps
Jer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trondsi

Not sure I get it. How do you make the paper strop? And how do you do it for normal stropping? You said ten laps on the 0.1 (paper with 0.1 diamond?)? No leather?

Anyway, I think it confirms something I suspected: razors don't actually need the teeth some people talk about. They need to be very sharp (obviously), and otherwise as smooth as possible. Of course, if you magnify high enough, any edge will look like it has teeth I suppose.

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Will pic when i get home!!!!


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Pellon is a brand name for a paper fabric clothing interfacing, used as a fabric liner. It is inexpensive and readily available at any place that sells fabric for about $5 a yard for a 36 X40 inch piece.

I like it for CBN because it can be wet and will dry in a few minutes with no ill effects and it is smooth and has no grain or grit.

Sailcloth is a synthetic polyester canvas, used for sails, covers and outdoor furniture, it too is inexpensive, about $10 per yard, but fabric stores seem to always be having 50 percent sales, so shop a bit.

I use it in place of linen because of the canvas weave. Canvas has an extra thread and a locking weave so you can cut it and it will not fray. It holds heavy paste well.

Both can be cut like Jer, posted and fused with fusing tape, that can be purchased in rolls of different widths and in sheets inexpensively, that can be cut to any shape. It is ironed on one side, the wax paper backing peeled off and the flap folded over the D ring and iron, the two pieces together.

Fusing tape is super strong, if you try to tear it apart, most fabric will tear, before the bond gives up.

I use a sail cloth strop with 3m Marine metal polish and Chrome Oxide on the other when honing, to polish bevels and remove burrs. It will also refresh an edge.

3m works well, if used too aggressively can chip, depending on the steel, but if use during honing, it does not matter. You can remove all the stria from a bevel, then lay your finish stria on the bevel and a new straight edge for a very smooth, keen edge.

Pellon works well with Ferrous, Cerium, and Chromium Oxides, Diamond, and CBN.

I have been making strops for years and exterminated with many fabrics as a linen replacement and for use with CBN. CBN works best when misted wet, which rules out leather, which is how I came to using Pellon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trondsi

Not sure I get it. How do you make the paper strop? And how do you do it for normal stropping? You said ten laps on the 0.1 (paper with 0.1 diamond?)? No leather?

Anyway, I think it confirms something I suspected: razors don't actually need the teeth some people talk about. They need to be very sharp (obviously), and otherwise as smooth as possible. Of course, if you magnify high enough, any edge will look like it has teeth I suppose.

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I don't think I have heard that you need a toothy edge, that sounds painful. If you shave from a 1k which you can it will be toothy and not comfy. If you hone and strop properly you should not have a toothy edge.

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Originally Posted by ejmolitor37

I don't think I have heard that you need a toothy edge, that sounds painful. If you shave from a 1k which you can it will be toothy and not comfy. If you hone and strop properly you should not have a toothy edge.

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Dear mr. Molitor;

The stria, or theeth, are best removed. I look at my edges with a 100X / 450X microscope. You know, the one for my daughters chem lab class. $10. There you can see what Marty call stria.

Most important, with one microscope [emoji436] you can see how the stria disappears as you treat your blade through the strop progression.

Now, there is people with tough skin and soft whiskers. They can shave with a butter knife. Thats fine. I am not selling anything. But if you want to try the ultimate shave, try hi grit. Getting a great shave is so much easier!

I like it for two reasons: one! I like DE and SE also and came to enjoy those super sharp edges. The second is that my skin is sensitive, and my whiskers are tough. So, shaving with a super keen edge makes the process easier (for me).

The only way to know if it is good for you is to try it!

Best regards,

Pepe Peña

I have a razor that I maintain on a .1 micron paste and have for going on 2 years, I think, with no ill effect. At .1 there are few edges it won't improve. Not magic but it sure feels like it.

Thanks for posting. Marty has always went above and beyond, IMO. He doesn't reply with sarcasm or try to make people feel dumb or gang up on them. He just seems to really enjoy sharing his passion with anyone willing enough to listen and learn. His posts are usually clear and informative.

I've got a blade that maintain on .5 Crox, .25 CBN, and .1 FeOx. No linen or leather, just pasted strops.

The shave is a bit prickly, but not as much as I feared. And 1 pass is all I need to match a 2 pass shave with (most) any other razor. It's been an interesting little experiment. I need a better strop for my FeOx though, I think it could get much better with a higher quality linen/fabric.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

I've got a blade that maintain on .5 Crox, .25 CBN, and .1 FeOx. No linen or leather, just pasted strops.

The shave is a bit prickly, but not as much as I feared. And 1 pass is all I need to match a 2 pass shave with (most) any other razor. It's been an interesting little experiment. I need a better strop for my FeOx though, I think it could get much better with a higher quality linen/fabric.

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Its good to hear this. Good luck with your experiments.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steel

I have a razor that I maintain on a .1 micron paste and have for going on 2 years, I think, with no ill effect. At .1 there are few edges it won't improve. Not magic but it sure feels like it.

Thanks for posting. Marty has always went above and beyond, IMO. He doesn't reply with sarcasm or try to make people feel dumb or gang up on them. He just seems to really enjoy sharing his passion with anyone willing enough to listen and learn. His posts are usually clear and informative.

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I concur 100%


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Hi sorry for digging up this slightly old thread but I am trying to find this pellon paper online and noticed there are different kinds and different gsm weights.. could you please say which one it is that you use or even better send a link to it as I'm a bit confused. Tyvm, mike

Mikey, my wife pick up a yard for me yesterday @ $2.97 per yard. In the sewing/tailor business they call it " interfacing " . Any place that sells fabric ( Walmart, Joann's , Hobby Lobby ) has it. Very common. No idea of the weight but I can ask The Good Lady then evening.

Mikey

Pellon is a brand name of an interfacing. Used in sewing to stiffen fabric components, commonly shirt collars, pockets and shirt front plackets.

It is also sold, one side impregnated with heat activated fusing glue, do not buy that one. Get the plain interfacing, does not have to be the Pellon brand.

It is a paper/fabric like Tyvek but comes in different weights and can be cut with out finishing the edges and will not fray, like denim or other fabrics.

Canvas also will not fray, it has the extra thread in the weave that locks the threads together, which is why it is used for Sails. Sailcloth is a Polyester thread Canvas, as opposed to regular Canvas that is woven from Cotton or Flax.

I have never used silkscreen cloth but did try silk and it worked but frayed too much, and silk does not like water. A distilled water, misted CBN strop will produce a finer finish and edge. Particles in tap or well water are larger that Nano grits.

You can buy Pellon at Wal-Mart or any fabric store, experiment with weights just make sure not to buy the one with fusing.

When you are using Nano grits, (sub one micron) contaminates that are inherent in some substrates, like wood, leather or vintage flax strops are larger than the paste/spray and will scratch the bevel and edge defeating the whole point.

.010 um CBN is about 160,000 grit equivalent. .50um CBN will remove almost all stria visible at 400X, from a 12k edge, with 50-75 laps. When you are making large grit jumps, a progression is easier on an edge and can prevent micro chipping, I usually go from a 20K stone to .50um, (30K) then .25um, (60K) and finish on .125, (120K) or .010um CBN. A .50um to .125um jump is easily done with a properly honed 8-12k edge. A 20k is easier.

As with any honing/finishing, the finish is only as good as the lower grit preparation/progression. In other words, if you still have 1k stria on the bevel, CBN will not polish the bevel stria free and straighten the edge, it is good but not magic.

A bottle of CBN is a lifetime supply, a Pellon CBN strop will last years, it will become contaminated by airborne dust long before it stops cutting.

The smaller the grit, the smaller the stria and the straighter/smoother the edge, but there are limits. The steel, edge geometry, and your skin…

Lastly you do not need a stria free, mirror bevel to get the benefit from a CBN strop. Almost any number of laps will improve, polish, straighten and smooth an edge, it all depends on all the other factors listed above, and the most important one, the user.

Enjoy

Welcome back Marty. Long time, no see.

Thank you Marty, its great to read your invaluable information again.

Thanks for the information very helpful

Is there a reason not to buy the one with fusing? Only I was considering making a flat strop as well for my knives and figured I might be able to use that fusing to stick it to the backing, would that be a problem?

Thanks again :)