The Leather versus Linen Controversy ; Poll

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03-31-2010, 03:31 PM
JimmyHAD

The Leather versus Linen Controversy ; Poll

I have been greatly influenced by the posts on stropping by mparker762 as far as the efficacy of linen and by AFDavis 11 on the importance of stropping. From reading their posts on the topic I've put an emphasis on focusing on my stropping rather than 'zoning out' and doing it on automatic pilot. I gauge the feel of the blade on the strop and the tautness of my pull, the speed of travel.

Thebigspendur did a series of tests to find the optimum number of strokes a couple of years ago and came to the conclusion that 60 was the maximum and past that you've reached the point of diminishing returns. If you do a forum search for 'The great experiment' you'll find the details.

In a thread called 'Interesting Article' seen here maparker762 posted,"I've been doing a lot of experimenting with stropping lately and one thing I've noticed is that I have been drastically understropping my razors these past years. If I only did 10-15 laps on the linen and 30 or so on the leather then my edges would last about ten days. But if I did 40-50 on the linen and 30 or so on leather then the edges didn't really deteriorate at all over several months." So for mparker the linen is of great importance in maintaining an edge. In my stropping routine I have settled on 50 linen or fabric and 25 latigo/25 horse.

Some people feel that linen/fabric is unnecessary. IME based on the HHT the linen or fabric greatly enhances my edges before the leather. In the excellent couple of pages on stropping found in the 1961 barber manual excerpt here they say,"After the razor has been keenly honed it is ready to be stropped. Although it may have a perfectly honed edge, one that will split a fine hair with ease, it is not yet smooth enough to be used on the face. Remember a razor should never be used for shaving without being stropped."

So accepting the premise that a razor must be stropped for best results I continued reading and was intrigued to find that even among professional barbers fifty years ago there was a difference of opinion on the value of stropping with the linen component. Quoting the manual again,"Most barbers use a pair of strops consisting of a canvas and a leather. The relative importance of canvas and leather is still a moot question. The viewpoint is accepted by barbers that the leather stop is indispensable where the canvas may or may not be necessary, depending on the individual's coordination of hone and strop. With some types of hones, however the canvas is considered to be necessary."

While the manual was written by and for professional barbers I have found one area I disagree with IME. The manual says,"When the razor is freshly honed, it should be finished on the leather only. Subsequently, it is advisable to use the canvas first, then the leather." Trying it both ways I have found I get better results coming off of the hones with the linen or fabric before the leather. So if you've persevered and read thus far the question is how you feel about the linen/fabric and it's importance in your stropping routine ? For me both components are essential.
03-31-2010, 03:37 PM
ShavedZombie

For me, I need both... In fact, my full rotation is SRD Felt, TM Linen, SRD Nylon, TM nylon, TM latigo, SRD Bridle, TM Horsehide, SRD Premium I.

I put as much value on fabric as on leather... I've always gotten better results by including fabrics, but other people have the opposite, so who knows?
03-31-2010, 03:48 PM
Stubear

I use both. I get really good results with my SRD black latigo (I've been resisting the Premium I, but I can feel my resolve weakening! :mace:) doing 30 webbed fabric and 60 leather.

When I started I only used the leather side of my first strop, but when I started using the material as well, I found that my edges lasted longer and seemed to feel smoother on my face as well. It may have been my imagination, but it just felt better to me..!

I've pasted my old strop with CrOx on the leather and white chalk paste on the canvas and I use that one after honing as part of the edge refinement, or for touch ups, so both sides of that one get used too. :)
03-31-2010, 03:56 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubear

(I've been resisting the Premium I, but I can feel my resolve weakening! :mace:)

Tell me about it. I'm in love with the Premium 1 but the Zombie is killing me with these posts about how great the bridle leather is .... the long one ..... sooner or later I know I'll end up going for it , I need another strop like I need another hole in my head but that hasn't stopped me yet. :boohoo:
03-31-2010, 04:04 PM
Stubear

Hehe! Yeah, it was Jeremy's comments about the Premium I that piqued my interest. I'm definately keen to get one, just with cotton herringbone weave instead of webbed fabric.

Jeremy, stop enabling us..! :D :p

Actually, I could use some more enabling, after all I havent bought it yet..! :rofl2:
03-31-2010, 04:11 PM
sebell

Quote:

I have been greatly influenced by the posts on stropping by mparker762 as far as the efficacy of linen and by AFDavis11

Same here, Jimmy. Whereas Alan doesn't do as many strokes
on the leather, I've combined the 60 strokes with some of his
technique: I do 40 laps on the taut leather with a fairly light
touch, and then 20 laps with no pressure at all.

The linen gets 60 laps with no pressure.

- Scott
03-31-2010, 04:21 PM
gssixgun

I learned to use the linen 29 years ago I ain't about to change now...

I do agree with the linen off the hones Jimmy, in fact I specifically use the Illinois #827 for that... Right after those 50 linen laps is when I check the edge under a loop too... That stiff linen will find any problems right then and there, after that I do 100 on the Russian leather and test shave...

Everyday use I have settled on 25/50 on the SRD Premium 1 the Bridle is looking appealing to try, out not that I need another strop, but hey I don't need 70 razors either...
03-31-2010, 05:00 PM
ShavedZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Tell me about it. I'm in love with the Premium 1 but the Zombie is killing me with these posts about how great the bridle leather is .... the long one ..... sooner or later I know I'll end up going for it , I need another strop like I need another hole in my head but that hasn't stopped me yet. :boohoo:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubear

I've been resisting the Premium I, but I can feel my resolve weakening!

Aaaaaw... Did I do 'dat?

Mah bad :p

Well, I only have four razors... Maybe there's a secret here.. you just need 3-10 razors, and 40-50 strops.. not the other way around!!
03-31-2010, 05:01 PM
ShavedZombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubear

Hehe! Yeah, it was Jeremy's comments about the Premium I that piqued my interest. I'm definately keen to get one, just with cotton herringbone weave instead of webbed fabric.

Jeremy, stop enabling us..! :D :p

Actually, I could use some more enabling, after all I havent bought it yet..! :rofl2:

Well, I want the herringbone on my Premium I too... (I haven't got the hanger... yet, just the paddle)

But I hear so many guys saying the nylon out and out beats anything else, for the most part...

Oh well.. One of everythign, right?
03-31-2010, 05:13 PM
hoglahoo

I voted undecided

Strapping on linen makes enough of an improvement for me sometimes to warrant being referred to as an important part of my routine, but other times it does not.

I suppose it depends on many variables that I do not understand, and for that cause I may remain generally undecided. Much experimentation is needed :D
03-31-2010, 05:17 PM
Slartibartfast

1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 40316

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

For me, I need both... In fact, my full rotation is SRD Felt, TM Linen, SRD Nylon, TM nylon, TM latigo, SRD Bridle, TM Horsehide, SRD Premium I.
03-31-2010, 06:13 PM
Jasongreat

[QUOTE=ShavedZombie;570435]For me, I need both... In fact, my full rotation is SRD Felt, TM Linen, SRD Nylon, TM nylon, TM latigo, SRD Bridle, TM Horsehide, SRD Premium I.
QUOTE]

Is shaving part of your routine, or just stropping? :) I dont think my arm could handle that many stropping laps, atleast it wouldnt be of much use to shave with following that.
03-31-2010, 06:28 PM
bassguy

I always strop after a shave, almost never before. The cotton serves I think to completely dry the edge before taking it to the horsehide, and I usually do about 25/100, but that's not set in stone. I vary it depending on the steel and how the shave felt. Because I strop after a shave I have never NOT used the cotton.
Every once in a while when I get bored I'll go through all my razors and do 100+ on newspaper, I find this does "peak" the edge noticeably but I don't do it very often.
A few months back I would strop on cotton between hones when starting a bevel from scratch, if nothing else than to see what happened. It did reveal trouble spots very clearly. But it became unnecessary as my technique improved.
03-31-2010, 08:55 PM
Obie

The Leather versus Linen Controversy

Hello, everyone:

Somehow something is amiss in my shaving ritual if I forgo the linen and opt for the leather only. It feels unnatural.

Regards,
Obie
03-31-2010, 10:08 PM
gary haywood

After honing the tm linen works a treat this realy makes my razors split hairs. TM cotton does'nt work as well. I have compared them several times. I follow with mainly horshide somtimes both litigo then horshide. Every day strop is 20 linen followed by 20 litigo 20 horshide or just 40 horshide. The TM linen is realy good for me.
03-31-2010, 10:32 PM
Sailor

I've tried several combinations before i found the one that suits for me. Simply i just do 25-30 on linen and 30-40 on leather before shave. Never after.I just wipe the blade with a towel after each shave.
I have 7 razors on rotation and with this method i can go on about 3-4 months before getting to barber hone.
This works for me. I do not want to make it too complicated.
I think the old time barbers didn't use linen just because it was handy and easy like a walk in a park to take the hone of the pocket and give it few passes every now and then. They didn't use electric tapes nor didn't care about the hone wear as razors were just mass production. Something like cheap ball point pens today.
03-31-2010, 10:41 PM
thebigspendur

I didn't know there was a controversy. Or at least for me there isn't. It's always 20 passes on the Linen and 60 on the leather before shaving. To me the cloth has a very slight abrasive effect.

By the way back in the old days when I used to go to the barber as a kid I never saw any barber strop on fabric before using a straight. It was always leather only. Maybe they used the fabric at the start of the day, I don't know.
03-31-2010, 10:50 PM
FTG

I use both linen (or more precisely - denim from old jeans) followed by leather.

Lately I've done my pre-shave stropping the night before. It's relaxing and I might spend more time stropping.

My post shave strop has been shorter - more of a final edge cleaning and tidying.

I have found that more stropping is better than less - it's also how I get to HHT sharp.

I haven't been counting the strokes lately - but definitely do more for the pre-shave stropping.

All the best,
Michael.
03-31-2010, 11:49 PM
jimmyfingers

its interesting after obtaining a few strops now how different the linen is them. It shouldn't be much of a surprise since TM and SRP both offer various types.

I like the Illinois 827 linen the best followed by the Hess Milk Hair ones Chris had for sale not too long ago.

I dont keep count, but probably around 20 linen and 30-40 leather before a shave

After the shave I like using TM linen for about 10 passes followed by the leather for 10. This is used to properly dry off the blade and all those little microscopic places on the edge.

I really have no idea if this helps the edge, but I like it and it works for me which is the most important thing. Also, I think a strop doesn't look whole with only leather.
04-01-2010, 02:30 AM
Ryan82

Yes, linen is an essential part of my routine.

I've found a noticeable difference in keeness when linen is excluded altogether, and it's not for the better. I don't own a microscope or loupe so I can't back it up with facts, but my face tells me all I need to know. So linen is a daily shaving routine for me, usually in the neighbourhood of 40 laps before hitting the leather.

Best regards,

Ryan

(Woo hoo.... 500th post!)
04-01-2010, 02:43 AM
Sirshavesalot

What Ive found is that if you dont prep your beard well enough and just strop of leather, eventually my edges deteriorate, but if I prep well, then the leather works for sometime, but I noticed stropping on my CROX pasted webbing the edge stays perfect.

I love my SRD BRIDLE strop it's awesome, but the webbing really does an amazing job keeping my edges keen.

I do 25 on pasted webbing then 50 on leather before each shave, then 25 on leather when I put the blade away. This works for me and my heavy beard.

Cheers
David
04-01-2010, 08:40 PM
Sharp&Shiny

I always strop on linen followed by leather before & after every shave .
For me this routine seems to give the best results .
Cheers Paul
04-02-2010, 01:44 AM
onimaru55

I voted undecided as I've always made do without it till recently but I can see how it is a great way to save your leather from rust & random microscopic metal particles.
04-02-2010, 03:37 AM
JimR

Things just don't seem right if I don't do at least 15 on linen, then 30 on rougher leather then 30 on the smooth finisher...

Ive just seen too much talk about the linen helping edges last longer (and reclaiming lost edges) to ignore. And certainly can't see it hurting.

So yep, linen for me!
04-02-2010, 05:51 AM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I voted undecided as I've always made do without it till recently but I can see how it is a great way to save your leather from rust & random microscopic metal particles.

It never occurred to me that this may be the real purpose of linen until now.
Yes, I use linen first then leather.
04-02-2010, 08:49 AM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

It never occurred to me that this may be the real purpose of linen until now.
Yes, I use linen first then leather.

I remember Glen mentioned it once... & as usual it made sense:)