Although my first post in this thread was very cynical I never said that these strops are not worth it to some people, only that they are not worth it to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReardenSteel
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Although my first post in this thread was very cynical I never said that these strops are not worth it to some people, only that they are not worth it to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReardenSteel
I think in a roundabout way, we may be saying the same thing :).I understand where you are coming from Doolie. If you ever get the chance to see or feel this strop, I encourage you to do so...no need to buy or commit or anything, just feel it.Quote:
Originally Posted by doolie
It's all good :).
We are saying the same thing, that value or worth is of personal opinion; just from different sides of the fence. To you the value outweighs the price, to me the price outweighs the value. Maybe if I saw and felt one of these strops I would be floored and my opinion of it would change. But until then....
Honestly, I felt the same exact way Doolie, and money wasn't an issue at the time. 400.00 for a strip of leather 3in wide and 66cm long? I could buy an entire Jacket for that..and a really nice jacket at that...I was very happy with my other strops, Yes, I have other strops. I have a problem..
Don't get me started on Filarmonica, Dubl Ducks, and Puma's..Forget about Customs...
.Anyway...All that changed when I broke down and bought a Kanayama. I'm no stranger to going overboard, splurging, whatever you want to call it. I like nice things...I went back and forth pm'ing some guy in Oz, preaching to me about Kanayama...I told him, I didn't care how nice it was, I'm not spending 400 bucks on a strop, but I did, I had to see for myself...
I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong, and I was. The Kanayama strop is a thing of beauty. It's so nice, I don't want to use it. Sounds silly, but it's true...When you see the little old Japanese man who creates them, it's awe inspiring...Men like Naomi san take great pride in their work and it shows in these strops. He is true master craftman. When you spend that much money on a strop, and you get it, You know immediately that it's worth every penny and you wind up thanking them....
Rich
Kanoyama strops are very nice. Like Lynn said, they have a nice vintage quality to them due to the fact that they are made by a person that made strops back when straight razor shaving was more prevalent.
They are expensive for a number of reasons: the leather is a premium leather (said to be "Cordovan"), they are made by hand in small numbers, and they are shipped out of Japan (this adds cost to those in the US and elsewhere). For the premium models, you are getting two strops and a linen component, with the "Cordovan" strop being made of a rarer, thicker piece of leather.
Some people like that these strops are very unique. The tanning process is completely unique to these strops. Also, I am sure some people like that the strops are made in Japan. These people may be Japanophiles, or just like the "exotic" aspect of owning a Western style product made in an Eastern country.
Most people that buy these strops do not buy one of the premium models (70K, 80K, 90K). The maker sells strops that seem to cost between $150-$400 from what I have seen, which gives a little leeway for different budgets.
I am not sure I buy the "love and care" argument for making purchases, as I believe this is a mind trick a person plays on their self to justify a purchase. It is very hard to tell if a manufacturer (from a single person to a large operation) loved or cared about their work. It is far better to judge the quality of a product, as no assumptions are made by doing so. Typically, a quality product is made by people who somewhat care about their work, but you'll never know to what extent they cared about their work. Judging whether a person loves their work is impossible unless you interact with that person.
Personally, I like the strops just for their vintage qualities. I do, however, believe that the strops should be used instead of collected, but I do understand why some people just have them to have them.
As with any hyped product, it is always good to ask if the product is what you want the product to be. The answer to that question can only be answered by each individual and will be unique to each individual.
I would so love to buy one. I have four strops now, and dont really need another one. but to spend $350 on a strop and constantly be worried that im going to nick or discolour the thing is to much pressure. My Hand American is absolutely beautiful dark cordovan leather. It started to wear at the bottom right of the strop discoloring it. I almost died of a heart attack. Needless to say, that I have overcome that dispair and started using it. So far no nicks though.
damm my file work on my custom livi spine has scratched my kanayama leather slightly.
I learned the hard way on my Premium 1. I have a default strop for all worked spines that might possibly damage the surface of the strop.Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
I am curious as to the rational behind some of these posts. Kanoyama strops have their own identity, but to say that their process is unique is a very long stretch and not really factual. Cordovan tanning was developed in Cordoba Spain long before the the Kanayama makers were alive. Horween also makes Shell cordovan which is different form the horse butts used by Kanayama, and they are older than the makers of the Kanayama strops. However, they don't claim to be the only cordovan tanners in the world, nor do they make strops. Horween also makes a chrome tanned leather that is use in certain shoes that feels almost exactly like the Kanayamas, it scratches easily also, but Horween shaves the weight of them down to 5-7oz whereas the Kanayama strops in the higher numbers are just thicker peices of fine horse butt. NOne the less, they feel very similar. Let's not also forget that Hand American has Horween make a cordovan tanned horse butt (not shell) that is used to produce the Old Dog 905, which to me is as beautiful as any Kanayama, SRD, Miller, or any other strop out there. But, his strops take just as much care, but you don't have to pay $400 to get his best strop.Quote:
Originally Posted by altshaver
It would seem we should call things as they are. Kanayama strops have a limited production, are made from horse cutts similar to what you could get from Horween, are hand made like many other strop makers, and are pretty to look at. They use there own tannign process, but the process certainly was not invented by them, they just do it their own way. They have a unique feel and a really nice cloth part. However, the money comes into the cost of materials (minimal), labor, shipping and the big money is the name. I searches far and wide when I pruchased the no name Walkin Horse Cordovan strop. It doesnt scratch and puts a great edge on a razor, but it has no name recognition that I can see, and it's cotton portion could be viewed as nice, but nothing special. My budget was around $200 and it was all I could find in a 3" cordovan at the time that I liked.
All in all, I probably should have bought the premium IV at razordesigns because the one I saw was as beautiful as anything I have seen and I can't believe the Kanayama at an additional $300 can be proven to give you a better edge. Probably my next $100 is going to be for that strops as everyone has nice thigns to say about it. It just seems from my immaturity in the strops knowlege that their is a fascination with these strops that drives their prices way up. Not actual hard core costs of materials and labor that drive the costs.
Kanoyama strops do not use the same tanning method the the Moors use. I have talked with JimR about this, and he says the tanning that is used on these strops is unique to this maker. He told me that it took Mr. Naomi 10 years to refine the tanning process. I am not 100% convinced that the leather used in these strops is Shell leather. Jim says it is, and I trust him.
If you recall, I did respond to your thread a while back, JDeviere:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...-question.html
Why do people keep saying they are $300 dollars? That's only for the higher models. I bought a 70K for less than $300, and got a free razor to go with it that would probably fetch $100 easy if I wanted to sell it. I believe the 30K strops go for ~$160. The 10K and 20K will be cheaper still.
By the way, I am not sure shoe leather makes the best strop leather. Even Keith De'Grau's "cordovan" leather is tanned using a modified process from Horween's shoe leather tanning. I really hate the word "cordovan" because it can be warped in any way a person wants.
That is very true - considering the original cordovan leather was made from tawed goatskin which was often painted and used to adorn walls.Quote:
Originally Posted by altshaver
Regards,
Neil
Mr. Deviere,
Since, by your own admission, you have no experience with Kanayama strops, it might behoove you to consider that, not having any idea about what something is typically is NOT a qualification to write at length about its value.
Arguing from ignorance is very rarely a good idea.
The kanayama strops will blow you away when you see them in person.
About 6-8 months ago, I tried to source some Cord leather and was instantly confused. Shell, 'North or Cord", Tanning, etc. that are specific to each Tannery.
The reason I wanted to make my own strop was to use to the best leather I could find and save myself money by DIY. However, Cord leather is expensive. I cannot remember the exact quote, but I believe it was at least 300 dollars. Moreover, that 300 dollars would only be enough leather to produce 3 strops.
Not to mention possibly ruining the leather since I have no experience working with hides. Needless to say, I declined the quote.
After this, those HandAmericans and Kanayama strops did not look so expensive
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
I don't understand why some one would need a default strop for a $300.00 razor from a "Master" craftsmen....:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
I think Gary is just saying that a razor with a worked spine scratched his Kanoyama strop. I don't believe the strop was bought for the singular purpose of using razors with worked spines. On the contrary, I wouldn't use a razor with a worked spine on Kanoyama strops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino
I think Jimmy was just saying that he has a strop that he solely uses for razors with worked spines. I doubt it is a Kanoyama strop.
Again, the $300 dollar thing?
Also, no need to put Mr. Naomi down. He makes an excellent product. The theme in this thread is that Kanoyama strops are nice, but not for everyone for possibly different reasons, the main one being money. Honestly, you can use untreated leather as a strop. In this regard, all strops are overpriced.
That is really interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks for adding that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
My point was if the razor was crafted by a, "Master" it should not be any problems with stropping. There is only one person responsible for the fit and finish of the razor. I would not be happy if a razor with poor finished work ruined my kanayama strop..:gaah:
Ah, I re-read the post again. I see what you are saying now. I think that is more of a nature of the beast sort of thing. I have to say that I am not a huge fan of worked spines; however, many people do seem to like them.
quite right i did'nt realize my live would scratch my leather. from now on i will use my livi loom strop it seems ok on the loomQuote:
Originally Posted by altshaver
My question is directed to those who have tried the "cheaper" versions like the 30,000 as well as the higher end models: apart from thickness of the leather (and the triple components of the top end ones), is there a significant difference?
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, thicker is not always better. I, for one, like some degree of pliability and would not mind "settling" for a less expensive model that I would not be afraid to use every day. As Lynn's post alluded to, break-in is a consideration in any strop, and I am afraid using it just on special occasions will be like, sticking to the analogy, driving your Ferrari to at no more than 50 mph.
Perhaps this is true, but I know of several people with Ferraris that do not drive them extremely fast just because they are capable of doing so. I also know of a man who has owned a Ferrari for several years and has not even driven 3000 miles in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG
I own an 80k and admittedly I am very cautious when using it. I keep it specifically for my hollow ground razors. (I find wedges do better on paddles). Upon receiving my 80K, I thanked JimR for his product and service and confessed my fear of using it. He replied that they are made to be used and to overcome my fear.
I am now somewhere between my original anology of it and Jim's!
Ray, pliability will NOT be a worry at all with these strops (probably in any thickness). My 50,000 is very very supple and flexible. As for the lower end models, I've handled a 30,000 and there wasn't even a significant difference in thickness between that and the 50,000. I use my 50,000 for almost all of my stropping and it's holding up totally fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG
I own a 50K and a 70K. The thicknesses on these strops are exactly the same. The difference between these strops, aside from the numbering, is that the 70K has a more uniform leather grain to it. If I find the time, I will post a picture of my strops to illustrate this. As far as I know, the 70K and 80K have the same quality leather, but with the 80K having the extra horsehide strop. The 90K is just a longer 80K strop. Based on owning the 50K and 70K, I don't think I would recommend buying anything higher than a 60K strop, as I don't believe the price is really worth it. Personally, I think going for a 30K or 50K is perfectly fine because I don't need the extra length. However, some people will like the extra 2 inches or so of stropping length. I am not sure if thickness really helps in preventing cupping.Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG
Edit: Pliability is not a concern with any of these strops based on my experiences.
I've got a 30000, some of the best money I've spent in this hobby yet.
After almost a year of NOT nicking a single strop, even once, I thought I was due for a quality strop. I use it all the time, more than I need to, really. I can't say it works better than my other strops, but it sure does feel wonderful to use.
Does anyone know who sells the 10K and 20K strops now? I think Rasurpur sells the 10K re-branded as the "3"
A pic:Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...yamaStrops.jpg
The 50000 is on the left. The 70000 is on the right.
They are indeed beautiful strops. I had to order one but think I'll leave it in the box for the next year or so as I get more proficient with stopping.
:D
That picture makes my 50000 look so lonely... :boohoo::wQuote:
Originally Posted by altshaver
How many laps are you guys doing on the fabric component?
I couldn't help but look at this thread. I have been looking at these strops for about a year now but for some reason am unable to go for it, I am getting closer however.
The pictures look great and are very tempting.
Kurt
50-100 seems to work well. Usually 45 to 50. I'm no stropping expert, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino
I do ~ 30. I am still getting use to the sound while stropping...:)
30 to 50 seems to be an average from what I've read. I do 50 & 50 linen/leather out of habit. thebigspendur did a thread called the 'great experiment' IIRC and found that past 60 there was no added benefit. Of course YMMV. :)
after honing i do 60/linen/30 on the trio horse seude type leather which is realy nice then i finish 30 on the cordaven leather. before shave i do 20/20/20. i have the 80k trio model and love the leathers this is my every day strop now.
gary
FWIW Ambrose on B&B is making his own strops now and supposedly they're awesome and way cheaper than a Kanayama.
Ambrose (Jose) does indeed do some very nice work!
I'm having a hard time shelling out the coin for a K when Ambrose and others work so well.
Maybe when I get perfect at stropping I'll go with K.
Very glad that I ordered when I did. Took about a week to reach Chicago. Looks like new shipping regulations will prevent future shipments to the USA...
Kanayama Cordovan Strops: NOS Razors From Japan
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