Why should the stropping motion be in an "X"? Intuitively, I think going back and forth along the same diagonal would be quicker and more natural. Does it maintain uniform wear on the strop, or is there another reason?
Thanks,
Scott Chapin
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Why should the stropping motion be in an "X"? Intuitively, I think going back and forth along the same diagonal would be quicker and more natural. Does it maintain uniform wear on the strop, or is there another reason?
Thanks,
Scott Chapin
When you strop on a narrow strop you have to do an X stroke to strop the entire edge.
For me even on 3" wide strop the stropping motion comes as a slight X.
I guess I don't see it. If I pull from upper let to lower right, roll the blade and push from lower right to upper left, the entire length of each side gets stropped. It just eliminates having to slide the blade from one side to the other at the end of each stroke.
As long as the entire edge is getting stropped it shouldn't matter (I'm assuming that you're talking about doing half an x-stroke, flipping the blade, and then going back in the same line, without moving the blade up to start at the heel again)
I think the main reason that folks do the x is that it's a more comfortable arm motion (for most of us-YMMV and all that) to draw the blade towards the body, rather than pushing up away from the body. I might be wrong, but it seems that you can also add more pressure than necessary if you're doing a pushing motion rather than a pulling motion.
This will be the case for a 3" strop, not going to work this way for a 2" or 2.5" strop, you will not have the entire edge on the strop.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottChapin
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottChapin
If your razor is perfectly true at spine & edge & your strop wide enough. No problemo doing what you describe.
If you have a razor with a warp or a smiling style blade you will not contact the whole edge without some modification to your stroke. The X gives you full contact on such blades even on a 1.5" strop
Because it is harder to learn, and much more difficult to master, and we all enjoy laughing behind the new guy's backs :p
Just Kidding :rofl2:
Like OZ just said, in a perfect world, with a perfect strop, and a dead straight razor, and you doing a perfect stropping stroke, every time, you can go straight up and down... or pretty much any pattern, so far I haven't found that perfect situation :)
Why not? You'd just be going heel to tip in one stroke and tip to heel in the opposite stroke. Maybe that's the issue. You shouldn't perhaps start at the tip and finish at the heel. Maybe that apples to much pressure to the tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
It just seems like a figure eight motion is awkward and inefficient.
Why wouldn't back and forth on a slant give full contact?Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
most people do a x either on the hone or the strop because it works.no hone is perfectly flat and even if it was your razors bevel isnt either. same gos with the strop. by doing a x you hedge your bets
It doesn't have to be in an X.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottChapin
I personally find the X more natural than going back and forth along the same diagonal. Since the straight back and forth diagonal is more natural to you then it may well be the best way for you to get the best results
I see what yer sayin', and your right, you'd still get full contact. What you'd be lacking is symmetry. Is symmetry that important? I don't know but I like it better. The full movement of the X stroke is an hour glass shape if you consider also the movement at the ends to achieve a heel first stroke every time. The movement your speaking of would be a single slanted line running from top left to bottom right every time, up and back. In my mind, your stroke represents 2 different types of movement where the X stroke is the same type of movement done in 2 directions. On a strop it might not matter but on a hone you would end up with your fine scratch marks leaning different on each side of your edge rather than being a mirror image of each other. Does that matter to the sharpness? Again, I don't know, but I will be looking forward to the test results. In the mean time I'll be sticking with symmetry, just feels right. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottChapin
.02
I agree with the OP. If you are using a pattern that gets both edges, completely, on each stroke, it doesn't matter much.
The reasons an x pattern is recommended is that I think there was a historical connection between the shave quality and the x pattern. The pattern is used when honing and it was surmised that over a long, long time, the strop might support the striations added through honing.
So there was this concept that you were stropping WITH the honing, or if you think geometrically it might be actually against the honing, but anyway . . .
In practice though these striations don't really seem to be too important, especially with the really high grits we use in honing today.
To this day though, there are a few people who say that they can tell a little difference, and for some people a little difference in shave quality is really important.
In that vein, why not hone back and forth along the opposite diagonal so the razor teeth are kept happy? The question "why the x" didn't go away yet. I am wondering if the X just helps most people keep a smooth and continuous motion rather than the stop and go of straight back and forthQuote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
Are you asking me? I think it does in practice make it easier. I'm not smart enough to understand the first part of the question about the "opposite diagonal".
I don't think all that stuff about striation patterning in the barber's manuals was just made up and they didn't really believe it, but it's certainly possible.
I've also got this hidden thought that razors are really to supposed to be unequally sharp along the entire length. As in the barber's manuals it says "use the top of the razor for the top of the chin . . . And the base of the razor for the bottom of the chin". That has always left me a little curious, beyond the obvious that the base is more stable. Ive always wondered if a little variance in the blade wasn't somehow . . . Appreciated. When I shave the most delicate hairs on my face I always use only the tip, which is always, for some reason, the most sharp part. When I shave really tough whiskers like my upper lip and base of my chin, the base of the blade always works so much better. And, bingo, that's what those pesky barber's manuals say your supposed to do!
I'm working on a PhD but I'm not smart enough to figure out what's going on with the edge of a straight razor.
I am too dumb to communicate to future PhDs well. Let me try again :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
Attachment 89072Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
Yes, I agree, assuming your fabulous graphic is color coded, one for hone, the other for a strop. But, then we would be getting questioned about the second pattern, wouldn't we? Why do I need to use an "opposing diagonal?". And worse, we'd be discussing what an opposing diagonal actually was, too.
The only thing that concerns me is that many people assume that the relationship is complementary, when I think the relationship, between hone and strop, is actually supposed to be perpendicular. So that the strop is supposed to wear OFF the striations and not work in-line with them. So I think, because of the directional difference (spine leading vs heel leading) the x pattern is designed to work in the exact opposite of honing and more quickly eliminate the striations. We now do this with a 12k, or 16k hone instead. But, the concept is the same.
I'm not sure if your pattern does the same thing, that of working either directly with or against the striations. What do you think?
Remember, the razors orientation is reversed on the strop. So I believe that the same pattern creates the opposite effect, and thus more effectively removes the striations and creates the better edge, similar to a higher grit stone.
Well, I'm a noob and want to get it right up front. The reason I posed the question, is that my intuition tells me the "X" is more awkward; so there must be a solid reason for it? On the diagonal, all you have to do is roll the blade between strokes. On the "X" you have to add a shifting motion at the end of the stoke to get a figure eight. More motion seems like more jerkiness to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
I'm guessing that you start the roll while the blade is moving and complete it after it has come to a complete stop; maybe even reversing your motion prior to bringing the edge back into contact with the strop. Adding the shift to these rolls seems like rubbing your head and patting your belly, only having to switch back and forth.
I do too, which is why I described it as complementary. If there is anything practical to striations for straight razor shaving purposes, which I personally doubt, I agree that the stropping ought to be working against the striations produced by the honing. So unless I honed with a spine-leading stroke, the diagram shows strokes which oppose the striations themselves from hone to strop but complement the effectiveness of polishing the razor's bevel. Again, I barely managed a BS degree (I am trying to hone - pardon the pun - my BS skills :p )Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
I still don't know why honing with an X is traditionally preferred over honing back and forth in the same direction if it accomplishes the same thing. If it produces a different result, however, that is interesting and I wonder how or why
For me, the X just naturally developed. My first strop was wide enough that I didn't feel a diagonal stroke was necessary, but over time as my stropping improved and speed started to increase with confidence, my muscles just sort of naturally and gradually transformed the strokes into an x-patternQuote:
Originally Posted by ScottChapin
Again, my hoglahoo advice is to start with what feels natural as long as you are making good contact between the strop and the razor bevel at all points throughout, maintaining a smooth stroke and keeping the spine on the strop
Reverse the motion before the razor touches down, otherwise you'll nick the strop to pieces. I can also assure you that any complete stropping pattern works really well.
This is getting interesting. My barber taught me years ago to hone going back and forth on a diagonal.
The only point I'm trying to make though is that there may be, or more importantly, they used to think that, there was a relationship between honing and stropping. So if you ask "why strop with an x?" I think it behooves you to question why hone with an x?
And with all these x patterns and pyramids going on, maybe there is some geometric purpose.
So I might point out that the OP might consider honing in the same pattern that he wants to strop in. But, it's a little over my head to figure it out.
As far as I can tell it's not even that important.
"This is getting interesting. My barber taught me years ago to hone going back and forth on a diagonal."
Ah okay then, that would make sense to me. From a barbering perspective and the training they got.
And it could be something as simple as it just being easier to use the same pattern consistently.
It would take some serious testing to figure this one out.
As was said before , in a perfect world with perfectly straight razors that's fine but think of a razor with a warp in the spine that lifts the centre of the blade off the stone or strop. How do you strop or hone that centre bit ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottChapin
I think if you look at the back and forth Diagonal and realize that if you move from heel to toe and toe to heel when you do that just a little bit, then it becomes an X pattern... Most every X pattern demo is exaggerated to show the motion you don't have to move the razor that much just a little X will accomplish what is needed...
Just so long as the entire edge moves across the strop evenly and equally then you can do crazy 8's,,, Myself I use a racetrack pattern when I really get moving..
If you get in the habit of thinking X it helps to accomplish the evenly and equally at the beginning...
I did a video once with crayons showing on a piece of wood the striation patterns of standard x honing and then standard x stropping. It was in relation to a question about what makes effective stropping and the central thesis was that you need to follow the hone striations when you strop. Turns out standard x stropping is in fact opposite to standard x honing for obvious reasons. But maybe I digress...
I am a firm believer in doing whatever works for you. Personally I strop mostly in a wind screen wiper fashion, which is not really an x pattern, although sometimes I will x.
The idea that an x stroke is the only way to hit the entire edge on a narrow strop is only true if you need the whole edge to hit the strop on each stroke - if you are prepared to strop sections of the edge on each stroke an x pattern is not necessary at all. Same applies for warped spines or whatever. I often strop this way on my narrower strops. I do not tend to do this too much when honing, though I have tried it on occasion with no untoward effects and I know of at least one other person who does it this way often - his edges are excellent. Probably not something to be tried without a bit of experience first (honing sections at a time I mean. Stropping in sections is IMO pretty benign).
So the x pattern for stropping is certainly traditional and perhaps the easiest to learn and explain to people, but in my experience certainly it is just one of many ways one can go about skinning the cat.
James.
Not sure how important it is, but if you do the diagonal pattern, the striations on the edge of the blade would go in different directions on either side of the edge. This is because the blade motion starts at the inner edge and ends at the outer (striations pointing out), is flipped over and then goes from outer to inner (striations pointing in). With the x-pattern, the striations go the same way (assuming the strop creates slight striations, certainly true if using certain pastes)
Hmmmm, as a noob, I was thinking you would stay away from such razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Personally , I do but you'd be surprised how many I hone for others that don't. Even brand new razors can be less than perfectly straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottChapin
I'd go out on a limb & say some degree of a warped spine is common which may be why the X pattren was invented . :)
To tell you the truth, I dont hone in an x or diagonal. I work up and back the length of the spine with several strokes to cover the entire width of the blade. I hone straight, no X pattern because my hone is wide enough.
Some nights I take the time to strop in perfect X's, most I dont at all. I've never noticed a difference, at all between the shaves. I am by no means a shaving expert or much of an enthusiast, I just like to use straight razors. I am not in search of a perfect spectacular edge, because my honing stops at 8k, then its right on to webbing and leather.
I think a lot of people get pretty crazy with this shaving thing! I am just looking for a good shave! but that is just me!
I think the key to anything is a light touch! I would say to strop lighter for more strokes. A light, proper stroke is not going to ruin the edge, evenif it doesn't get the entire edge in one swipe
