Printable View
Hello guys,
I am somewhat amused by the famed kanayama strops and some other cordovan leather strops that command big prices.
I am wondering about their performance and how they differ from other strops. my go to strop right now is a 3 inch Tony Miller Steerhide.
I understand that the kanayama storps have lighter draw.
are there any vendors selling high end cordovan strops right now? or do I need to hunt a vintage one?
Thanks
Dan
I don't know who is carrying Kanayama right now. JimR was but stopped months ago. He said QC was not up to par on some of them but still up to par on the higher end strops. Anyway, you might shoot him a PM and ask. I had a 90,000 but sold it because it cost too much for me to feel 'safe' stropping on it. Then months later, I bought a second hand 80,000. Same strop set but standard length. The 90,000 is a few inches longer. I like the standard length better since it is what I am used to. Anyway, the Kanayama strops use a cordovan that is unlike any I have experienced and I've gone through a lot of strops, new and vintage. I don't know if it is better in terms of the final outcome but it is sure is a beautiful strop. Kind of like a VW will get you to the same destination as a Mercedes but I'd rather be in the latter.
@JimmyHAD: Thanks Jimmy. I did see JimR's rather dramatic post about how they stopped Carrying Kanayama strops.
right now I am looking for performance in a strop can't really afford the last word in luxury.
@Fierce30rus: Thanks for the link buddy, are you sure it is a genuine and reliable cordovan strop?
Unfortunately I can not give 100% guarantee of authenticity. But some guys from the Russian forum bought there. All of them are happy.
Dan, don't jump on the first thing that comes up. Let some other members weigh in. Kanayama has a large variety of strops. They are separated in quality and price by a numbering system. A "3" is at the extremely low end. Maybe a great strop, dunno. I know I've seen guys who were very happy with a #30,000. Here is a 30,000 that rasurpur has been carrying and it is in stock. A few more bucks but might be a lot more strop. They are on vacation until August ..... pop up on their site ..... but they say it is in stock @ 157 euro.
Thanks for letting me know Jimmy, I was not about to jump on the strop, Just surprised to see the price was reasonable because I was unfamiliar with the numbering system.
[/QUOTE] @Fierce30rus: Thanks for the link buddy, are you sure it is a genuine and reliable cordovan strop?[/QUOTE]
That is indeed a genuine Kanayama strop. They are marketed under many names. That particular in the link comes with
a suede secondary which is an amazing piece of leather for stropping before turning to the cordovan. As you read around here always a light palm rubbing on the cordovan keeps it perfectly.
Keep in mind all quality strops do the same job. No matter the critter or the finish. The difference is in how you feel about it and the luxury mindset. Also they will have a different feel as you use them as well as when you look at them.
I have a #3 and its a fine strop.
I've never had a Kanayama. I do have the Tony Miller 3" premium steerhide and it's my favorite cowhide strop. The Tony Miller has a great smooth, light draw for cowhide. If you want anything lighter you have to go horsehide or shell cordovan.
You can buy a Walking Horse Shell Cordovan strop at The Superior Shave, when he has them in stock. I understand that the only U.S. tannery producing shell cordovan or horsehide is Horween in Chicago. The shell cordovan strops are hard to come by and it's a matter of checking The Superior Shave website frequently. When he does get them in they go fast. Last time he had them in stock I purchased a 3" version, although there were some 2" versions in stock. It is an amazingly light draw.
If you like a light draw you may be happy with a regular horsehide, which is lighter than any cowhide. Both Walking Horse and SRP have horsehide strops made from Horween hides. You'll get a very light draw for less money than shell cordovan. Only you can decide whether the shell cordovan is worth the premium over regular horsehide.
A few weeks ago I got one of the 2" Walkin' Horse cordovan shell strops from The Superior Shave, and it's a world-rocker in my experience. The only comparable experience was when I got my 12k Naniwa. The strop, like the hone, has opened up a new level of expectations from my blades. I like the linen back on the 2" version, too. The main selling point was that the 2" is cheaper, and to be honest, I don't miss the extra half-inch that all my other strops have.
It's hard to believe that anything so slick can do something to steel, but it really does. So far there's no draw to speak of. But there's something going on nonetheless.
Best wishes
I also have a Walking Horse horsebutt strop from The Superior Shave and agree with roughkype that it rocks. I got some neatsfoot oil from SRD, because the advice is to apply it lightly to reduce the slickness. However, I like the slick draw the way it is and have not used the neatsfoot. I strop 50 on cotton and 100 on leather. Lately I've been splitting the 100 on leather, doing 50 on the horsebutt and 50 on the shell cordovan. My reason is to just get a good comparison of the feel for each of them. Right now I can't tell you that I have a preference for the draw one or the other. I can tell you that they both have a great, very light draw (or perhaps no draw at all).
I ended up with two Tony Miller 2 1/2" horsehide strops. I used one daily for quite awhile and then, just for the heck of it, took a very light application of neatsfoot and applied it to that strop. I let it set for a couple of days and went to my other go to strop, an SRD premium 1. The premium 1 has a very light draw but it has some and is about just right for me. The light application of the neatsfoot gave a noticeable increase to the draw on the TM horsehide.
Noticeable but not so much that it suddenly became like a latigo. OTOH I was glad I had the other TM horse because I liked the original draw better than the increase on the other one. So IME the neats foot will definitely give a bit more draw. It will also darken the leather slightly so if you have a blond TM horse it will be as if it were in the 'tanning booth' for a couple of hours. I also applied neatsfoot to a strop I made. A HandAmerican piece of horse butt being the source of the material. Very slick with no draw at all until the neatsfoot application. Even with the neatsfoot it is still a bit slick so I have to get around to doing another round of it.
Finally, I used to do 50 and 50 linen and leather religiously. Of late I've been experimenting with less being adequate. I've found that, for me, 30 to 40 on each surface seems to bring the same results as the 50/50. Some years ago thebigspendur did a couple of threads on stropping. IIRC these threads are titled "the great experiment." TBS knows his strops and he found that going past 60 round trips seemed to be redundant. Anyway, to each his own. We can all do our own 'great experiment' if we are that serious about it.
AF Davis, another fellow who knows his strops, has said that stropping is one of the most important pieces of the straight razor puzzle ....(I'm paraphrasing) and I used to think that was an exageration. Of late I've been working harder on my stropping and I have found that AF is spot on.. Stropping really is as important as honing in the end result. Maybe even more so. IMHO.
Horween advises that the majority of the Cordovan leather goes to the Shoe industry, so we don't see much of it. It is more expensive and a little different animal from a modern day strop standpoint. From a results standpoint, it is no better than many of the other strops out there. I used to use a little neatsfoot oil on regular horsehide, because it starts off so slick, but have gotten away from it. I find that simply palm rubbing the strops until your palm is warm before use provides the best break in, use and maintenance these days.
I have a bunch of Cordovan strops and probably use English Bridle and Roo more than any others these days.
You should be guided by your own budget and preference when it comes to what strop you choose, but as Jimmy indicates, stropping is key to the every day success of wetshaving with a straight razor.
Have fun.
Back in the day a barber would never even think of taking a straight to someones face or even to trim some hair after a haircut unless the blade was stropped. So that shows you how important stropping is.
Thanks for the responses everyone.
there has been much talk on this thread about the draw, I would like to mention that I prefer a very light draw. But the most important thing to me is what the strop does to the edge, not the feedback.
Sure stropping on a light flexible 3 inch smooth strop with light draw is pleasant, but ultimately I care about the performance.
My original question is not about how cordovan shell horsehide strop feels. The question is if use of such strop makes for a superior edge over other types of leather.
Thanks again for advice
Dan
IME horse, be it cordovan shell or 'regular' horse butt, gives a characteristically light draw. Latigo or bovine derived leathers give a more pronounced resistance or draw. My guess is you'll find guys use what they like the best, in terms of draw, and think they get the best results from whichever hide that strop came from, be it horse or bovine. I would venture that knowing how to strop to best advantage is more important than whether it is one hide or another ..... assuming it is a strop of decent quality and correct dimensions. Just IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by danielghofrani
Hi Dan,
The simple answer for me is that in my experience, yes, the cordovan shell strop gives my blades a better edge than either of my bovine strops.
As I've said many times, as long as the strop is quality it makes no difference the critter it comes from or the finishing they all do the same thing. I've seen no functional difference as far as the edge goes.
I base that claim on at one time having probably 30 or so strops including the kanayamara. They all feel different and look different but that's about it. probably if you pay a lot for one you think it should work better and you have the placebo effect. Maybe the differing feel. length, width and other things cause people to use them slightly different without them realizing it giving a different result but that's just a guess on my part.
What TBS said,amazing how much of this sport is purely mental.:)
Well when you think about it we gotta be crazy to shave with the darn things!! :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Whole thing borders on being a sickness,No sane people understand.
Like this morning,my wife had to ask: You know that new razor that came in the mail yesterday,(yes,what about it)
Why did you put it under your pillow last night? DOH :)
Digging this up. Waiting for the kanayama strops to come into stock to buy one of the higher $$ strops.
All I can say is this about the cowhide vs. horsehide argument, I don't believe that they both do the same to a razor edge (a horse butt strop will maintain an edge without going to linen or hones for much longer) and in the days when everything was rendered and slaughtered here and barbers chose some sort of horse almost universally.
If the difference isn't there up front vs. cow leather, it's there in spades after 3 weeks of shaving with the same razor, let alone after 2 months.
I don't have any delusions that the kanayama will do more for the edge of a razor than a horse butt strop, but both of my horse butt strops that are settled in do more for an edge and do it longer than any of my cowhide strops. A little bit more initially, but a LOT more after the razor has 20-50 shaves on it.
My Kanayama 2196 came today and I set about some stropping on it as well as, comparatively, on my other strops. 20 round trips on each and here's what it felt like to me. The Kanayama was VERY smooth, tho not quite as smooth as my Illinois 361 which I think is steerhide (??). The Illinois is so smooth it doesn't feel like it's doing anything.
The Kanayama was smoother than my SRD Premium which has been my main strop for quite awhile. And my latigo -- really a drag, comparatively speaking.
In short, I like the way it feels under hand. The Kanayama is a nicely constructed, handsome stop and I think I'll be using it preferentially, at least until I'm ready for the next change.
I like every vintage Horse strop i get it's a wonderfully smooth strop.
i do think horse is better then cow.
Do remmber the big thing that will prevent them from rotting drying or cracking
is to oil them.
Strops be one of the items in the world i enjoy gathering up.
i got me a nice horse one once 20 bucks with other stuff.
what a deal it's still useable for razors. I also got a nice stone with
the deal. I don't even remmber what the other stuff was.
IME, and I have and use a variety of strops, including a Kanayama 90,000. They all do the job. I don't notice any difference in the shave. It's really your personal preference, What you like to use, What draw you like. These days, I'm liking the steerhide you mentioned or my SRD Premium 1. If you have the funds, and want to go for the Cordovan, go for it. If your looking for a dramatic difference in the edge, I don't think your going to see it imo. I agree with TBS.
"If your looking for a dramatic difference in the edge, I don't think your going to see it imo" I wonder if there might be some pithy info here...if you know exactly what you are looking for, you have increased your likelihood of finding it.
I just realized that I spend a staggering amount of time reading these posts. I wasn't looking for enjoyment, but I found it.
TBS has put in the time to be an authority. I have used lots of different surfaces to strop without my discerning any differences with the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
In my personal opinion I have to say that I have 1 kanayama and a tony miller 3". In my personal point of view every morning I use both firts the Tony's and 50 stokes with the kanayama. Difference? not that many, Take in consideration your budget because I do belive that the price they ask for that leather its too much at the moment eventhou its a rare and dificult to find leather.
Thanks
K
This is true. The results will be the same or really close. OTOH, I also have a lot of strops and I do discern a difference in the feel of the razor on one strop from another. As I've said before, if you have one strop , whatever the draw or lack thereof, you'll get used to it. But if you're inclined to collect the darned things :gaah: you'll end up liking the characteristics of one, two or three, more than the rest. At least IME. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by jaswarb
I may be the one person thinking this, but I do notice a difference in horse butt vs. a softer high draw cow leather.
But it's not on the first shave.
It's on how long the strop will keep the razor in shape. The harder the strop, the longer I've had luck keeping the razor off the hones. The longer the razor stays off the hones, the longer the razor lasts.
I have a kanayama in the closet, but haven't used it yet because it's supposed to be for Christmas. It took a while for my horse butt strip strop to break in and feel smooth and compliant on the surface, it'll be interesting to see how the kanayama compares. I haven't used any of the high $$ harder cowhide strops, either, I'd probably find them favorable if they were harder with less draw, but horse butt strips are so cheap that I can't justify buying anything other than cordovan if I'm going to spend money.
If I were tight on money, I would personally just stick with plain untreated and undyed horse butt strips, cut to a hanging strop size. The cost per strop is about $10 plus hardware for a $2x24 strop if you get decent horse butt.
Any clean strop though, soft or hard, should do a good job of improving an edge right off the hones, though. I am by no means saying that anyone should buy a kayanama strop or a horween shell thinking they'll get a sharper razor right off the stones, and it's possible I might find those expensive strops less favorable than a cheap and already broken piece of horse butt.
Kanayama strops are kind of like walking on an icy surface for the first time. It will be interesting to see how your perspective changes over time DaveW. I have learned that my edges are all fine for me whether I decide to use, roo, cordovan, regular horse butt, bridle leather, Norwegian cow hide or Norwegian bridle leather for stropping. From time to time, after honing for instance, I may use CrOx on balsa or felt, diamond on felt. I also use a Japanese bench strop which is a small rectangular
block of wood with a thin piece of very fine suede covering it.
I am happy to say as a straight shaver I never tire of learning something new from our members. Enjoy.
Going from latigo to horse butt that hadn't seen any oil, that's sort of what I felt like then (walking on ice), too. I felt like I couldn't tell whether the edge of the razor was on the strop or not. Part of the reason I ordered the kanayama was selfish (to try to get a wonderful feeling strop) and part of it was to support an artisan who is plying a trade, and who has been at it for a very long time. I sort of like to let my strops (that are just tanned leather) break in from use and not add any additional oil to them as long as they don't craze (none have so far, but thats out of not many).
AT any rate, I'm hoping it's pretty slick like the horse butt when I do get to use it, though it might be a little bit less slick than that because it feels like it's been oiled a fair bit.
The only real condition for me as far as strops go, despite the preference for hard ones, is that hard or soft, the surface of them is clean and free of any debris that could ding up the edge of a razor, even if it's just dust.
I am looking forward to your thoughts on the Kanayama when you start using it. And I certainly agree in supporting the craftsman who continue producing a world of beautiful efficient strops for us. It has been rewarding to ponder the world of straight razor shaving especially from the time Lynn decided to make the efforts to bring everything public over time. The response of craftsmen the world over coupled with new business ideas have produced an amazing number and variety of
items for wet shavers of all sort. Not to mention the brotherhood that has evolved.
It could be less the hardness of the particular strop & more the tanning process (silicates etc.) that makes the horsehide win out. I'm finding my horsebutt to work great for razors lasting, but even after 2 years of use, it's a bit stiff for my taste. Hard to feel what the razor is doing compared to softer, but it does work pretty well in spite of lack of feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Very curious to know your thoughts on the Kanayama when you use yours. It's something I'll probably buy in a month or so.:beer1:
Yea there nothing better then a strop collection of useable vintage strops.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
I'll bust it out on my birthday (in a month or so) and post back here, as well as posting back a month later if I can remember - to see if it changes as drastically in a month as the horse butt did.Quote:
Originally Posted by PA23-250