Using water to warm up the razor before stropping

Hello everyone. I am quite new to straight razors, honing and stropping them, however I made a small discovery today that I wanted to share it with you. As I said, I am new to this, so people might have had same observations before me, and, please, ignore this post if you find nothing new in it.

Anyways, I was honing my Dovo Prima Klang on a Coticule today and, when finished, took it to the strop to do the regular post-coti 50 polyweb / 80 leather laps. Before hitting the strop I noticed some staining on the blade left by the tape I used when honing. I figured it was glue which needed some hot water and a little soap to be removed. It worked in fact and the stains were removed with very hot water and 2-3 minutes of rubbing. In the process I heated up the razor quite significantly. And there it came to me...

but first my understanding of how stropping works:

despite the lack of sufficient scientific research, which would clearly demonstrate what stropping does to the edge, I always thought that it simply realigns the edge, without removing any steel from it. This should be much easier with warmer steel as it becomes more elastic.

so... warming up the strop with the palm of the hand helps, and the razor by itself warms up in the very process of stropping. But what if we take it one step forward by actually heating up the blade? One more deduction: the blade needs to be cooled down right after stropping, as flexible steel might develop micro-bents in tension points by itself, without actually touching anything (this last one was suggested by a friend of mine, 40 year steel-working veteran)

I am planning to repeat my experiment with a glass of close-to-boiling water and another one with near freezing water.

Let me know if this makes sense:)))
Thank you.

I really wish someone with The knowledge and scientific testing would either Debunk or prove that stroping a just used,warm blade has any bad effects on a razors edge or for that matter any cutting tool.
I was told back in the 60s by a tool and die maker that you never sharpen HSS tool bits after use without letting them set at least 24 hrs (rest).
Asked why? he said the steel needs to relax. Not a clue as to what that means.
A very well known Honemeister and his followers say the same about razors,Wish some real answeres of resting metal is valid or not:(

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Wish some real answeres of resting metal is valid or not:(

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To me resting steel allows it to develop micro-bents (let's call it deformations) through a slow cooling process, as each temperature point brings its own set of deformations until it all comes to a more stable condition. I call it more stable as the imperfections of the conditions will still cause minor deformations in the metal. I would say that 24 hours will be enough to bring the steel to a resting point, beyond which the changes will not affect razor's shaving abilities.

Now, to temper with the normal flow of events, one can think of speeding up the resting process by chilling the metal with water. I would not put it in the fridge as the reverse process will kick in after the metal is brought back to room temperature. I suspect at this point deformations can develop even faster.

The idea behind cooling the razor in my previous post was to remove the flexibility caused by initially warming it up.

Do's any documented proof exsist that so called resting of steel after use actually do anthing??

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Do's any documented proof exsist that so called resting of steel after use actually do anthing??

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none that I know of. But there is abundance of empirical evidence showing that it really does make difference. Just like stropping, we know what results it brings but how exactly remains unknown.

BTW early models of Soviet AK machine guns had instructions to put the barrel of the gun in water or snow, when possible, after each round to maintain consistent bullet trajectory. I guess deformation tolerance was raised with subsequent models. However, it is still advised to rest the gun for at least one hour after every 3 rounds.

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Originally Posted by Cros

none that I know of. But there is abundance of empirical evidence showing that it really does make difference. Just like stropping, we know what results it brings but how exactly remains unknown.

BTW early models of Soviet AK machine guns had instructions to put the barrel of the gun in water or snow, when possible, after each round to maintain consistent bullet trajectory. I guess deformation tolerance was raised with subsequent models. However, it is still advised to rest the gun for at least one hour after every 3 rounds.

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With gun barrels it is an entirely diff issue,heat makes the barrel move,that why you glass bed and freefloat target rifles.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

With gun barrels it is an entirely diff issue,heat makes the barrel move,that why you glass bed and freefloat target rifles.

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I agree - with gun barrels we are talking of a different degree of heat altogether. Be that as it may, I would hate to be a soldier with a fire rate of 3 rounds per hour! I'd be firing hell-for-leather to the cook-off point...

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I agree - with gun barrels we are talking of a different degree of heat altogether. Be that as it may, I would hate to be a soldier with a fire rate of 3 rounds per hour! I'd be firing hell-for-leather to the cook-off point...

Regards,
Neil

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Actually Neil,with an AK made for military combat,accuracy is a joke:) Is a great book intitled AK,The guns were built like tin cans,of interest is there are approx 100 million of them worldwide.

I'm sure accuracy would be a secondary issue in this context. It seems like may people try to test them to destruction, getting the barrels so hot the wood grips start smoking, etc. I just read of someone putting 980 rounds through one... makes you wonder!

Regards,
Neil

You can bury an AK in a rice patty for a year and it will still work fine right out of the mud,Kalishnakov (SP) had a great idea.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Actually Neil,with an AK made for military combat,accuracy is a joke:) Is a great book intitled AK,The guns were built like tin cans,of interest is there are approx 100 million of them worldwide.

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+1 to this... I guess the first model of AK came out before the WWII and was not really tested in the combat. AK47, which is still widely in use, was launched after the WWII, in the end of 40's and is a much superior model.
Now, having had quite some exposure to AK47, I can assure you that it is the finest machine gun I have seen and precision is not bad at all. With tracer bullets you can see the same precision even after 4-5 rounds. Failing rate after 20 rounds is significantly high though.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I'm sure accuracy would be a secondary issue in this context. It seems like may people try to test them to destruction, getting the barrels so hot the wood grips start smoking, etc. I just read of someone putting 980 rounds through one... makes you wonder!

Regards,
Neil

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wow... 980 x 30 = 29400 pops - now thats 49 minutes of uninterrupted shooting:)

The story was posted by someone who had a relative in the armed forces in Iraq or somewhere. They took turn in firing the rifle with beaucoup 30 round mags until the sergeant came and stopped them. THey said it was beginning to cook-off, but never jammed. He said they also dug up old AK47s and tried to ruin them, but they just fired right after being dug out of the ground and cleaned off a bit and kept on firing.

Regards,
Neil

A must read for anyone that has an interest
AK-47: The Weapon that Changed the Face of War: Larry Kahaner: 9780470168806: Amazon.com: Books

But the real question is...

Can you load some CrOx onto the wooden furniture of an AK and strop effectively with it? :rofl2::roflmao

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Originally Posted by crouton976

But the real question is...

Can you load some CrOx onto the wooden furniture of an AK and strop effectively with it? :rofl2::roflmao

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:gwh: :roflmao you can steel an army knife on the barrel though

howd we get so far away from the aforementioned subject?

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Originally Posted by seacaptainchris

howd we get so far away from the aforementioned subject?

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Good question:) important questions I think,info that nobody can answere,so we just move along till next time

Stropping does actually remove metal from the blade.
Found a source to back it up since I'm new: WONDER PHOTOS REVEAL UNSUSPECTED FACTS ABOUT Razor Blades and Shaving (Oct, 1931) | Modern Mechanix

Also another study suggests that the beginnings of a burr still exist after all other honing is done and that stropping helps make this not-a-burr uniform:
http://www.coticule.be/stropping-a-straight-razor.html

I would however like to know the outcome of the experiment. Anyone have an opinion on if it made a difference?

I've noticed that the razor seems to drag back & forth nicer on the strop when the blade's warm,although mine are always warm, as I use hot water to rinse off the mineral oil from the blade just prior to stropping. :D

I think the temperature change in the blade from a warm or hot water rinse is relatively small compared to the errors associated with the human element (stropping technique) and the sample population. Compound these issues with the tester bias, and lack of calibrated testing to ensure any meaningful and quantifiable results, and I think this notion may never be proven (unless for some reason a person wanted to test it in a lab...and getting funding for that might be difficult:D)

Simply put, my ability to strop consistently and gauge sharpness AND meaningfully compare it to a perceived sharpness hours prior is not nearly constrained enough to say anything on this subject that would amount to more than a hunch/suspicion/prejudice.

As always, YMMV;)

It feels to me that my razor stropped immediately after shaving has less draw and is smoother than when I stropped it immediately before shaving. The razor had been rinsed several times under hot water and wiped dry. I will have to try a hot water rinse before shaving to see whether this makes any difference. This is using a 2.5 TM linen/latigo strop.

After storage overnight, the previously smooth razor from the evening before no longer exhibits the lighter smoother draw that it had immediately after shaving.

Do you keep your strop in the bathroom?? If yes, then could the strop rather than the razor be the cause. Moist strop vs dry strop?

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Originally Posted by crouton976

But the real question is...

Can you load some CrOx onto the wooden furniture of an AK and strop effectively with it? :rofl2::roflmao

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probably could use the sling.

Either way, heating the razor could potentially mess with the temper.

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Originally Posted by ChopperStyle

Either way, heating the razor could potentially mess with the temper.

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not going to happen with the hottest tap water.

Guess I'll have to take your word for it.

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Originally Posted by ChopperStyle

Either way, heating the razor could potentially mess with the temper.

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Most blades are tempered around the 1300 degree mark. Temp varies with the type of steel so hot tapwater is around 140 degrees and will not damage the blade temper in any way.

To the original post, I believe stropping removes micro corrosion on the edge. I believe that's it, really, nothing more or nothing less. I believe the purpose of stropping on webbing is simply to remove debris so that that debris does not impregnate the leather of the strop. Using the webbing post shaving removes debris too.

In regards to using water to remove the glue from the tape post honing, I myself use eucalyptus oil. I also use eucalyptus oil after stropping to clean and preserve my razor. The only time my razors are ever subjected to water is when honing. Of course they get moist from the lather during shaving, but I never rinse them, I always wipe on a moist face cloth. The reason I do this (rather than rinsing) is simply that I want to negate as much as possible water getting in the pivot area or between the scales.

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

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Most blades are tempered around the 1300 degree mark. Temp varies with the type of steel so hot tapwater is around 140 degrees and will not damage the blade temper in any way.

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You are thinking of heat treating, I think. Heat treating hardens the steel and it happens with most steels when you heat it til a magnet won't stick to it, then quench it in oil or water depending on the steel. Tempering softens it back up just a little so it isn't brittle and you can do that in your oven that you cook in. I have it on good authority that tempering a razor is done at around 340 degrees depending on the steel. That's farenheit BTW. Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level and lower temps at higher levels. Hot tap water should never be over scalding temperature and 140 is really hot... my Dad always sets our water heaters to 118 degrees or so. You waste a lot of BTU just keeping the pipes hot when nobody is using it and 118 degrees is as hot as anybody in our house can stand. 118 degree water is a lot hotter than 118 degree air because hot water conducts to the skin more efficiently. But anyway in principle you are right... hot water can't mess with the temper. I helped grind a couple of razors the other day and our warning temp was when it was too hot to touch comfortably. When you mess up the temper, you get a color change like straw yellow or tan or blue or violet. If you don't even have the faintest color, your temper is still good. Scuse a newb for talking out of turn but yeah any razor or any other steel cutlery is hot water safe LOL how else could you put a kitchen knife in the dishwasher? Feel free to boil your razor LOL! Except maybe the scales will get soft or something.

But as for the original question, I think actually the difference is heating up the STROP, not the razor. When you heat the strop you make it more flexible and it has more draw so it feels diferent. As for the razor, I think it should be stropped at the same temperature that it is used for shaving. Period. So if there are any temperature induced changes in the edge with just a few degrees, which I kind of doubt, they are not an issue. Then again, it probably doesn't hurt anything, either so if it feels good, do it. Otherwise don't bother. Hey, its just shaving, you know, right? Right.

Thanks for your addition TulaneBoy. I'm new here myself but if the new people don't post then they will always be new :)

What you described by heating in an oven is called Annealing. Tempering releases trapped carbon in the... I'm going to need a refrence here sorry:
"Tempering - The carbon trapped in the martensite transformation can be released by heating the steel below the A1 transformation temperature. This release of carbon from nucleated areas allows the structure to deform plastically and relive some of its internal stresses. This reduces hardness and increases toughness, but it also tends to reduce tensile strength. The degree of tempering is dependant on temperature and time; temperature having the greatest influence." (Metallurgy Of Carbon Steel)

Check the site refrenced out if you like. It has a nice description of Martensite too, which is when you rapidly cool steel to make it harder.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

You can bury an AK in a rice patty for a year and it will still work fine right out of the mud,Kalishnakov (SP) had a great idea.

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In close combat, I'd take an AK over an M-16. My M-16 jammed many times...all it takes is a little bit of carbon or a grain of sand. Maybe the newer models are better...I was in during the 80's. I thought the M-16 POS.

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Originally Posted by Nathanael

Thanks for your addition TulaneBoy. I'm new here myself but if the new people don't post then they will always be new :)

What you described by heating in an oven is called Annealing. Tempering releases trapped carbon in the... I'm going to need a refrence here sorry:
"Tempering - The carbon trapped in the martensite transformation can be released by heating the steel below the A1 transformation temperature. This release of carbon from nucleated areas allows the structure to deform plastically and relive some of its internal stresses. This reduces hardness and increases toughness, but it also tends to reduce tensile strength. The degree of tempering is dependant on temperature and time; temperature having the greatest influence." (Metallurgy Of Carbon Steel)

Check the site refrenced out if you like. It has a nice description of Martensite too, which is when you rapidly cool steel to make it harder.

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Actually annealing and tempering are two different things. You can't anneal tool steel in a kitchen oven. Temper yes, but not anneal. For annealing you need basically the same heating capability that you use for heat treating. The main difference between annealing and heat treating is to anneal, you cool very slowly. Buried in slowly cooling ashes and coals, for instance, or sand or salt, or simply moderating the heat source in a slow and deliberate manner. Annealing makes steel soft enough to work. You can take hardened tool steel and anneal it and then you can stamp it, saw it, bend it even. You can file it and you can easily grind it. Try to cut hardendd steel with a file. It will mostly just skitter across the steel and not bite in. But anneal it, and you can work it with a file. In fact, speaking of files, I was shown a worn out file that had been annealed cause it is scheduled to some day be made into a couple of razors. We bent the tang in a vise. Okay, so some files you can do that. Well, we also bent the tip of the file. You can't do THAT with a file that has not been annealed! But the description in your link of tempering is interesting so thanks for posting. It has added to my knowledge base.

Shoot, you're right. You need to heat beyond the A1 transformation temperature for annealing, preferably significantly exceeding the A3 line.

I read the page I referenced after I had copied the quote, plus read your posts with more scrutiny, and realize that I have been calling tempering by the wrong name. The procedure and noticable effects are very similar, however they work in fundamentally different ways.

On a side note, I find air cooling makes steel malleable enough for a drill or machine sanding (those are not 'malleable' actions, I realize). I have used sand before and it makes a small difference.