Exciting news Mike !
My only input for now is kitchen knives don't have holes & neither do razors. I know the Spydie kitchen knives are hole free so I reckon the razor should follow suit.
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Exciting news Mike !
My only input for now is kitchen knives don't have holes & neither do razors. I know the Spydie kitchen knives are hole free so I reckon the razor should follow suit.
That’s really cool that you’ve been able to collaborate with them on such a venture. I assume since it’s a prototype we can’t see any pics.
The things I would like to see is a set of scales appropriate for the size of blade as well as thin. Seems a lot of recent production razors have boat anchors for scales. They really screw up the balance as well as the look.
A shave ready edge, for real. Nothing puts new guys off more than when a new razor won’t shave.
Is bainite a good idea? As I understand it bainite is pretty darn tough. How does a bainite blade respond to stropping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfk742
All good feedback gents. The idea is to get a razor out there having tried to eliminate the obvious problems that should have never been there in the first place.
Oni, the hole is not a choice, it's Spyderco's trademark. I admit I was worried heat treating this blade because that's a fine place for stress risers to occur that would have blown the blade to pieces. Round is a much better shape than angles. I have some of their kitchen knives with holes in the blade. There is no detectable loss of performance.
As to bainite, one of the traditional worries about straight razors was their brittleness. Moving from martensite to bainite increases the toughness without reducing the hardness, reducing the odds that a lesser side swipe into the sink fittings will cause a chip. Only a few steels are able to do this. 52100 is another but that is a fickle mistress. O-1 is very forgiving. I know what Sal wants to do. But the rest of the design and marketing team wants to use a steel they have succeeded with before. They offer a sound plan too.
Playing Devils Advocate :)
I think a hole can add some character. Alis Blades' Chedic Christ has done some models with holes and im sure so has Bruno.
Attachment 315134
AFAIK Benjamin Cardoso (Benjamin Cardoso : Bricolages coutelliers) has been allowed by SpyderCo to use their trademark hole on some of his productions for years.
For a first blade, I would advise to be quite straightforward, and not stray too far from the most common shapes. Something without a smile, a simple to handle nose (so no rough square, french or spanish nose).
While I am a lover of near wedge blades, I would advise for a hollow blade of not too big a size. Again, stay in touch with the times and the "main market", not the afficionados.
Spyderco used to make a lot of blades (non-folding ones) without a hole in them - just saying. A big hole in the blade - like the one on Cedric's razor pictured above - would be a big no-no for me, as it'd allow lather flow from side to side - being major inconvenience.
A small hole in upper stabilizer area - like the one you described, and like Spyderco's making in their modern non-folders - would be a lesser evil. Better yet, if you make a wider "dragon" tang - like the one in Cedric's blade above, you can put a hole in the tang. Or you can put a hanging ring/hole at the end of the tail, like in this one:Attachment 315136
Bottom line: the further the hole is from the lather-catching area, the better.
O1 steel is a great choice, but I'm not sure bainite is better for a razor than the traditional martensite. In a knife - sure, but in a straight one can use all the hardness one can get (as long as the edge is not crumbling) for better edge retention, while the toughness is only useful in your sink-dinging scenario, which I hope is not a daily occurrence for the most of us, if at all. So in my opinion using bainite would be sacrificing daily advantage for some singular use-case. But may be I'm wrong and you'll manage to make both advantages in one - it's all in your hands, and I sincerely wish you a lot of luck!
As to other features I personally would like to see: full hollow, slightly or non-smiling (FBU shape is great, the Ottoman also), thin and snug horn or wooden scales, no spikes, non-round head, 5/8 to 7/8, jimps, true wedge (not spacer), no screws, really shave-ready.
Spyderco is a great company, and I would very much like to see a straight razor made by them. Lots of luck with your project!:gl:
P.S. Don't forget to make a great sale here for the forum-members when it's ready :)
I like Dimab's idea of the hole in the tang tail if you have to have a hole.
Most of my razor work is removing pits so they do not become holes.
I am also no fan of long monkey tails.
Hole in the blade face= no sale.
What I like most about this is the intentionality and thoughtfulness.
It seems like a great collaboration with the parts complementing each other to make together a success.
Spyderco is certainly a high quality manufacturer that brings experience and expertise in production and marketing. I am very happy to see that they are willing to step out of their comfort zone and are doing it in what I consider the smart way.
I can not think of a better choice than Mike for the link between the knife and straight razor worlds. We're lucky to have him in our community and I'm not surprised he's reaching for the expertise we have here.
This really is what's most encouraging to me about this project and its chances for success.
I think we all agree that the most important thing is functionality - luckily over the years we've gotten good idea on the major things that ensure that. Basically staying within the design of a typical razor, from the length of the blade ~2.75", to the dimensions of the shank and tail, as well as the bevel angle and spine thickness. Rounded spine for sure and jimping on at least the underside of the shank.
This ensures most of the ergonomics - the center of the mass of the blade should remain in the same area of a typical razor. The presence of the hole, as well as the degree of hollowing may require tweaks to the design - putting more metal or removing some from the shank/tang areas.
Stropping sets its own constraints too on the razor as well as on the scales - it needs to be easy and natural to roll around.
The thing about the general razor design is that it hits these points, that's why it's important to stay within it and I'd be more concerned with the hole changing the distribution of metal and thus the ergonomics, but it shouldn't be too hard to compensate. Even making it first in playdough or plastic can help with that. But that's my purely theoretical speculation and may not be the case at all.
The size of a razor is typically stated in 1/8ths (rounded down) so you may want to bring that to the attention of the marketing people down the road. There are not many 1" razors on the market and never really were past the 1800s. So this may be an important point to consider - what is the target demographics and the market segment. Would it be competing with Dovo or with the custom and semi-custom makers.
I personally do not like razors that large. Of the several I have and have used over the years I have just one that feels as natural for me to use as my preferred size of 6/8. It's made by Mastro Livi and is fairly hollow ground (nothing like full hollow though).
To me aesthetics is very important and I like best the styles of Joseph Rodgers - all the frills are understated. There are curves but they're somehow more natural and flowing than on the typical Sheffield like W&B. I can't describe it well, but that's my feel for it.
I am imagining that the hole will bring a more industrial look on it, so it may look better with more angular than more curved lines.
The degree of hollowing is again something I'm not sure about. Very stiff grind like 1/4 would certainly put it in the big hunk of steel category and most newer users would probably be staying away from it. Actually the 1" width will probably have done that already.
I used to have a 1" Ern and 1" Hess which were full hollows, though I'm not sure if that's even under consideration as I believe it used to require double grinders and a lot of skill.
There are some large vintage dovos as well - I think I still have a 7/8 'diamond steel' which is a great razor.
Not sure how much of it is helpful, but I'm just throwing my thoughts out there.
In most of these 'crossover' commercial endeavors, I see a completely straight edge.
I suppose that makes it easier to produce, but a slightly smiling edge would be more successful in the shaving dept.
A 6/8 razor with a hole in the blade looks strange in my mind.
I would like to see a 7/8 with some style to make the aesthetic work more like it does with the knives.
JMO
No doubt, Spyderco has a following, they make a great product for the money.
I have been carrying a Spyderco for about a year. The question is, what will the price point be? As said, it will have to compete with new production razors of proven performance and quality vintage razors that have dropped appreciably in the last year.
Don’t think the hole is a big deal, more the knife steel in a razor format. Richmond did a razor a few years back using their knife steel and it flopped. It was too hard, chippy and lots of complaints, they stopped production. You or they might want to talk with Mark Richmond…
Make the prototypes of the proposed steel, get some folks to test, use and hone them before production.
