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I've cruised the search thing but didn't quite find the answer I was looking for.
Not referring to a wedge, if a blade has adequate steel remaining but the spine is slap worn down next to nothing, is it shot? Or is tape always the/an answer to recovering a good bevel and final edge? And, if a couple of layers of tape are needed to rebevel, will the blade still have good enough geometery to meet the strop?
Wild guess, if you use the app I do to calculate how many layers of tape you need on a wedge to get an 18 degree angle on the bevel my guess it would also work with a worn down spine on a full hollow. It takes into account how wide the spine is and what size the blade is to get you into the ballpark of an 18 degree bevel which is , from what I have been able to gather, is the bevel angle spec for a brand new razor with the proper geometry.
Bob
I'm gonna throw this out there, and say this. "When it is no longer serviceable". That can vary by user to a fair degree, what I consider to be serviceable and what you consider worn out may be greatly different. I think that would be a point that the time or effort to obtain a quality shave has become unreasonable when in the hands of a skilled man.
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Jeff
Someone must have honed with a crazy amount of pressure on the spine to wear it out but it's still hard to visualise that adequate steel could remain at the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMoo
I'd say you're in no-man's land with 2 layers for stropping . One is no problem, 3, I would strop taped, 2 dunno, I'd probably tape it but guys that can work a slack strop may disagree.
If I amy throw a wrench into this discussion. I have been curious. Tape is used for honing today. But before tape it was honing with bare steel I assume? Given that and given the fact that many of those old razors which lived full lives and are again being used today are still functioning beautifully in a lot of cases I might add. Well,...what I am trying to get at is. Just how damaging is it really to hone without tape. Since your using light pressure,how long in terms of months or years would one imagine it would take before the razor was un honeable ?? I say this because I hone without tape. Is this more of a purist thing or will my razor be unuseable in a few years ? I have often been perplexed by this whole tape thing which is why I ask ?:shrug:
There was a thread or 2 about this in the past. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nightblade
It makes little difference to longevity Steph as long as you know how to hone & direct the hone to the edge more than the spine. i.e. the talk the torque. ;)
Taping a spine is generally about cosmetics but can be used to compensate for established spine wear.
I thank you for that straightforward and immensely helpful reply Oz. Seriously ,thank you.:angel:Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
What is this app you speak of? You certainly have my interest piqued... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
I guess the general theory is that if you hone with no tape the spine wears the same as the blade, spine width shrinks and so does blade size so the geometry should remain the same. If the spine wears more over time you might wind up with a wide bevel. To compensate for excessive spine wear and to get a narrow bevel back layers of tape are used to get the geometry back and a narrow bevel of about 18 degrees. This is just my guess not having had too much to do with full hollows with excessive spine wear. I am thinking that using the Excel app here http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html you might be able to get that narrow bevel back. Like I say this is just a guess. It seems to work on wedges to keep you from shaving excessive amounts off the side of the blade and an excessively worn spine compared to blade size on a full hollow may start to mimic what happens to a wedge/near wedge honed without layers of tape. I hope I am not being clear as mud about what I am just supposing.Quote:
Originally Posted by crouton976
Bob
Amazes me that people even want to attempt a restore on a razor that is just plain done from many years of use and razors that were mediocre to begin with.If just for fun or to practice,thats great,but sometimes it is just not worth it.
I have what was once a fantastic Juan Volmmer palmera,fully etched blade,4+ mm of spineware the biggest frown you have ever seen and a bent tang.
Lord I would have loved to see her when she was born,she was very well loved during her tenure,But she is now dead,R.I.P.
And hence my question. Where does recovery end and futility begin particular to spine thickness. Is a spent spine a sign of just plain done?Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
If I can hone it to shave ready without tape, I keep using it.
I have a soft spot for well worn old blades. I guess there's something about knowing that they've been a functional tool through the years that I enjoy.
Needing to add plastic tape to hone them ruins that for me.
It just might be that there really is no definitive answer that applies to every user. Really if you can hone it to shave ready no matter it's faults/condition then it is still usable. If on the other hand you don't want to go to the effort for whatever reason then it is spent. Sorta like how high is up?Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMoo
Bob
Up is twice as far as half way up. I agree, if you want to, and can, take the time to get it in shave ready condition, then its still functioning. If you cant, or are unable to, then move to the next one.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
I know the answer....... YMMV :)
Exactly as with so many other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Bob
You could hone without tape and would just end up with a wider bevel. It may also make a thinner weaker edge.
I would tape the bevel with two layers of tape and paint the whole bevel with a sharpie. Do a few laps on a stone and look at the width of the new bevel. Add or use less tape to get the bevel you are looking for, 1/16 - 1/8 inch. Once you have a new bevel set and honed it may be years before you need to hone again.
Paint just the edge with the sharpie by it running on the edge, with the edge straight up. This will paint a 1/6 of an inch on both sides of the edge. Strop on nylon or plain leather to make sure you are stropping all the way to the edge. You should hit the edge with a hanging strop without tape on the spine.
What we have to remember is many of these razors sold for a dollar or two and were fairly disposable, if they lasted a couple or 10 years that was good enough. That thinking and barber hones that were pretty aggressive leads to what we see today.
So how far do we go to restore? It’s like most things, like cars and motorcycles. Guys are “restoring” cars where they are replacing frames and 90% of the sheet metal because there are fewer and fewer of them. Really rebuilding stuff that a few years ago were just scrap.
Personally I do not buy anything like that, hone ware is the first thing I look at. But if you have it and it has personal value… go for it. It is just time, really it can be honed until it will not hold an edge any longer.
It is surprising how fewer razors you see in the wild, compared to just a couple of years ago. And have you seen the price of vintage brushes?
As with several others above, very helpful to my understanding the difference between well-used and spent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Simply put, "It ain't that simple" :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nightblade
Keep in mind that many of the older Sheffields have a softer spine than the edge (Tested, go find it on SRP) so you added another wrinkle to the whole issue..
Add in just plain "Bad Honing" and take into account that all spines are just NOT perfectly even from the factory, and that grinds can be a bit off too, and you have a recipe for what we see all the time on e-bay etc:
The great statement people toss out of, the spine and edge wear the same, should be prefaced with "In a perfect world"
Here is some math plus hands on experiments about the entire Taping thing to peruse
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html
ps: The angle as tested on multiple razors by multiple users right here on SRP came out to be 16°, there was an old article that ONE brand of razor posted that they targeted 17° and somehow people took that to be truth not realizing that only one maker stated that...
One recent maker started life with their razors at 13° - 14° and found that they had issues with the edge crumbling and chipping.. Another, some years back had razors in the 22° plus range and people bragged about his edges.. Some of this comes down to the steel also, see like I said it isn't so simple..
Conclusion after testing, measuring, reading, and posting, about this for years now... Tape if ya want,, don't tape if ya want, it is after all your razor :p
As to the OP
Spent is when the razor can no longer function in it's capacity as a shaver...
You and I both have seen some pretty "Worn to Nuttin" razors out there that were obviously shaving until the day they went in the back of the drawer.. It basically comes down to what each individual decides is the point that the razor no longer functions...
Take an Extreme Hollow Grind, they honestly only have 1/8 of an inch (some even less) of edge before you are into the "Belly of the Blade" now you could continue to hone and shave that blade for many years after that, but as you get deeper into the steel you are getting a stiffer and stiffer edge :shrug: For me since I like Extreme Hollows, once that happened, IMHO the razor no longer functions as a shaver... BTW read the above link to get an idea of how long that would actually take with PROPER honing...
I have been thinking about the even spine and edge wear thing, I don't think it woild hold true, as the amount of metal in contact with the hone would need to be the same on both ie if your bevel is 1/8" then the amount of spine in contact with the hone would need to be 1/8" or the narrower area would wear quicker, well maybe anyway, perhaps a metal working person could expand on or debunk this for me. Thanks ed.
Imo, yes. If the spine is shot, the razor is gone as far as I am concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMoo
You can't tack steel back on, so any restoration attempt will still end with a worn razor.
That's correct. Generally speaking, the spine doesn't wear as fast as the edge because the hone wear on the spine would be a bit wider than the bevel on the edge. With wedges, you sometimes see them being the same, which is also why wedges tend to develop wide bevels along with wide spine wear.Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt