Tortoise scalers, restoration yes/no?

Hello gents :),

I have purchased a (as I managed to understand with some help) George Johnson & Co razor (pics below) cca 1810-1850. If I am not mistaken the scales are tortoise (btw is there any sure test to distinguish them from dyed horn)? They look pretty beaten. Would you try to restore these or not? If so what would you recommend besides sanding, polishing, some sort of stabilization (eg epoxy?) anything else?

http://shrani.si/f/11/130/3Shm2rNh/1...7-mihacrni.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/6/Ur/3Idr2ruS/1/2...7-mihacrni.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/Z/w3/136ge3bx/1/2...7-mihacrni.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/2Z/xN/3VvHMYS8/20...7-mihacrni.jpg

Thanks for the info!

They are "Mottled Horn" and they are De-laminating...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

They are "Mottled Horn" and they are De-laminating...

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+1

Regards,
Neil

I love, love, love those collars.

...so (to make it clear to the idiot (me) :D ) it's a nooo for the restoration? .. I noticed the delamination but hoped a "stabilization" might take care of it to some extent?

thanks for the answers to all 3 of you

They look pretty badly delaminated hear the wedge. Sanding may make them look a bit tidier, but delamination often goes further than you expect, so dont expect much. Proably the best thing for them is soaking in neatsfoot oil - that will help make some of the finer delamination less obvious.

Tarkus is right - lovely rosette collars.

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

They look pretty badly delaminated hear the wedge. Sanding may make them look a bit tidier, but delamination often goes further than you expect, so dont expect much. Proably the best thing for them is soaking in neatsfoot oil - that will help make some of the finer delamination less obvious.

Tarkus is right - lovely rosette collars.

Regards,
Neil

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Plus 1 :p

thanks guys,.. I'll give soaking a try (as soon as I find some neatsfoot oil here,.. my guess is a leathermen might have it), but will probably make a new pair of scales,.. I was thinking of keeping the collars,.. hope I'll manage to keep em nice

edit:
- how long do you soak scales in it
- what does the neatsfoot oil do, my guess is it fills/blows/"rehydrates" the horn hence making the delaminating less visible due to scales volume increase?
- if the delaminating is usually deeper and goes on wouldn't be a better alternative to try to file the horn with epoxy in eg vacuum and than give them sanding/cleaning/polishing.. I guess it should prevent delaminating?

I have had good success with placing a few drops of CA glue in the cracks and delaminated areas. If you have the ability to do the epoxy in a vacuum why not give it a shot?!? After you have done that, soak it in Neatsfood oil, and give it a polish. I place odds on money that it comes out pretty nice. :gl:

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Originally Posted by miha

I was thinking of keeping the collars,.. hope I'll manage to keep em nice

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I would throw my jugular in harms way before those collars.
If you hurt them I will cry!!!

I guess at some point in time the cost of new horn blanks, $18 or less, and the time involved to make new scales starts looking more attractive then messing with old compromised scales..

The actual work involved is just not that different, at least IMHO it isn't so if you have the skills needed to fix those I think you have the skills needed to make new ones :D


Here is a similar restore

http://straightrazorpalace.com/custo...tore-horn.html

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

They are "Mottled Horn" and they are De-laminating...

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And -- with a little bit of luck -- they will be "De-lovely". Original scales, with original pins and collars, on a 150+ year-old blade that wears its patina proudly, are an unbeatable combination. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" (and if it is, do... but don't be so quick to replace it).

Smooth shaving!

I agree with all of you..

I would like to keep the original scales but especially one is pretty de-laminated, that at 1 point goes almost through entire scale..

using the epoxy and vacuum.. vs getting the new ones: I have fairly liquid epoxy, with 30' window (maybe a bit more) especially in lower temps ... I've never done it before but have access to desiccator (not sure if this is the right expression) and vacuum pump. When impregnating woods (especially thin pieces as scales) no "severe" vacuum is needed as I was told from a antiques restorator... if I'm going to do it I'd mainly do it in order to learn a new technique, on the other hand I'd like to make it nicest possible so a new pair of horn scales would be nice (although I have to find horn in my part of the Europe). Another con for this fixation of scales is that if not mixed with ex horn dust epoxy will be translucent and wil probably be still visible in the delaminations cracs? .....sooo to sum this part up, I will probably end up with making a new pair (can anyone share a link or few links of preferred vendors, friendly priced, of horn scale blanks, if in EU even better)

flower collars: I like them just as you, and can be sure that I'll try my best, but have in mind that I have no workshop (still learning, although this will never stop anyways) and usually have normal looking nothing special collars, so I don't really take care not to damage them... I was thinking of first drill the pins (handheld) and than try to take them off, any other suggestions? (if I'll manage to ruin them I'll just be quiet, to avoid cryings)

here are some more (midnighty) pics of the scales to get a better picture..

http://shrani.si/f/3k/In/4M1FeF8m/img3457.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/1h/12t/4MXu5Flq/img3458.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/2v/4N/2bPH8JCE/img3459.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/3l/Jq/2YfItRZs/img3460.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/2v/IY/13jnFhXw/img3461.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/3X/c6/GlozTvL/img3462.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tarkus

I would throw my jugular in harms way before those collars.
If you hurt them I will cry!!!

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Love it. I can see Tarkus, head down, happily following a glinting line of little rosette collars, fiiling his pocket as he goes, eyes all shiny, a big smile on his face. Too late does he see the huge wedge of a blade raised at a 45 degree angle, the little line of precious collars has led him precociously under it.

HAR! He exclaims, for no particular reason as the blade falls with a swish. Then all is silent save for the zephyr breeze blowing the fine desert sand over the precious collars. Tarkus sees this with his disconnected head. His lips form the HAR word one last time, but the playful breeze, along with his breath, has gone. Darkness descends and dreams of the collars fade away into the gentle night of oblivion...

I feel like crying now as well, Tarkus...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Love it. I can see Tarkus, head down, happily following a glinting line of little rosette collars, fiiling his pocket as he goes, eyes all shiny, a big smile on his face. Too late does he see the huge wedge of a blade raised at a 45 degree angle, the little line of precious collars has led him precociously under it.

HAR! He exclaims, for no particular reason as the blade falls with a swish. Then all is silent save for the zephyr breeze blowing the fine desert sand over the precious collars. Tarkus sees this with his disconnected head. His lips form the HAR word one last time, but the playful breeze, along with his breath, has gone. Darkness descends and dreams of the collars fade away into the gentle night of oblivion...

I feel like crying now as well, Tarkus...

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Neil you have know one to blame but Tom (Sharptonn) It's all his fault, he beat it into my brain. Never never destroy a collar they are worth more then gold. He uses them as currency

HAR!!!!! You guys are NUTS! collars? Where? :p

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

HAR!!!!! collars? Where? :p

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I rest my case Your Honor....

I repaired a set of horn scales once. After I did it I thought it would have been easier to make new ones. ;)

http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...le-repair.html

I feel it would cost nothing to carefully unpin the razor (saving the collars, of course!) , and trying to smooth out the scales by heat/steam after sanding and steel wool.
Then, Fully dried and if desired, a layer of the bartop epoxy to encase and preserve what is left! A very, very long drying time after and reassembling the restored blade and original collars and wedge, would be the best thing, ever. Or not?

@gssixgun and onimaru55: thanks for the links, will sure come in handy
@sharptonn: I will most certainly try to keep the collars and do a scale restoration (am probably use clear epoxy mixed with scales dust), can you please explain a bit the part with heat/steam smoothing

I must confess I am a bit nervous about how am I going to manage to save the collars since I don't have a drill press, if I'm going to drill it's going to be with a hand held dremel, I will probably try to make a "lead punch hole, a cross with a Dremel will probably not be an option since the peens are fairly deep in the collar) any tips on un pinning maybe?

I would also like to know what is your workflow on cleaning a collars like that,.. do you try to clean them to some extent while still on pinned on the scales or do you do the entire cleaning after you removed them,... if you how do you fix them, do you use "motor driven" eg polishing or do you do everything by hand, I think that polishing alone is not going to do the trick (check the pics in my previous post)

and for the end,.. can someone recommend a fair priced vendor for horn scales (all scales I did so far were wooden) if possible European one or at least one that doesn't want another pair of scales amount of $ for shipment :)