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Fun and will get you kicked out of the neighborhood for pollution. They say in old methods the temperature for pressing horn is that of melting lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmonster
This video may help out.
From the-making-of-abbeyhorn-shoe-horns/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0o74Dmsyes
~Richard
I messed around with pressing designs into horn and I found out it would take alot more than I have to do anything serious. Just as an experiment I steamed a piece of horn till it was pretty soft and pressed a metal design into it with a vise and the design was in there somewhat, but wasn't that deep and once the horn heated up again it returned to its natural state and the design was gone. I think there was a post on here awhile ago about needing alot of pressure "as in tons of pressure" and a really hot die and heated horn to be able to keep it from resorting back to its original state. If only I could find some of the old dies or be able to make new ones it would be fun to mess around with.
Was somewhat interested in the making of horn scales old school, here a small article from an Encyclopedia from 1813. Also has the process to make faux tortoise looking scales.
Attachment 153004
Temperature correct or so, A 12 ton hydraulic press should do the job. A heated hydraulic lab press would be tits!
The stink.............Awesome Eau de Burning Hair until the dies cool down and then again for the rough sanding. I don't mind making horn scales until I get the horn over a certain temperature in the cutting or sanding.
Then the chemicals...a witches brew!
Potash /ˈpɒtæʃ/ is any of various mined and manufactured salts that contain potassium in water-soluble form.[1] The name derives from "pot ash", which refers to plant ashes soaked in water in a pot, the primary means of manufacturing the product before the industrial era. The word "potassium" is derived from potash.[2]
Minium is the naturally occurring form of lead tetroxide, Pb2+2Pb4+O4 also known as red lead. Minium is a light-to-vivid red and may have brown-to-yellow tints. It typically occurs in scaly-to-earthy masses. It crystallizes in the tetragonal crystal system.[1]
Calcium oxide (CaO), commonly known as quicklime or burnt lime, is a widely used chemical compound. It is a white, caustic, alkaline crystalline solid at room temperature. The broadly used term "lime" connotes calcium-containing inorganic materials, which include carbonates, oxides and hydroxides of calcium, silicon, magnesium, aluminium, and iron predominate, such as limestone. By contrast, "quicklime" specifically applies to a single chemical compound.
I wonder about the life expectancy of a horn dyer?
~Richard
Hey, Mods,
Would it be possible to break off the section here about horn to a new thread. This is getting interesting!
Thank you!
~Richard
I'm interested too! I also have access to a hot press all the way up to 1400 C and 1 GPa, maybe I can work something out with that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer
..this might be totally wrong and it is just a wild idea... so as far as I know
- horn is ceratine, and hair is ... (mainly)
- in the 60-70s women used to do their curles (I am sorry but can not remember the expression, I think it's perm)... it was done (if I remember right from my biochemistry lectured :D) that the hair were made in the manner that the hair were wind around the (thingy" and than thiese disulphide bonds (connecting 2 neighbouring ceratine filaments) were broken (reduced), and later again formed with the small difference,.. they were formed between different sulphides (due to neighbouring filaments "sliding" along each other because of winding them ) ..
..so to sum / project my idea on this prioblem :D ... a heat and REDUCING agent (might be the same thing than women used or stronger reducents,.. ps. reducents are toxic as well but are like the ones for the hair less concetrated and/or "potent"), , tahn pressure (eg straightening) and at the end reformation of S-S bonds (disuphide bridges) .. might facilitate the forced form of the horn (plates)
ps. again, this is just an idea that might be a miss :)
pps. a fisrst thing that woudl be good to know should be if the S-S bonds are also as important or aboundant as in a haid fibres...
I have read about using Hydrogen peroxide as a bleaching and softening agent for horn in musty texts of yore.Quote:
Originally Posted by miha
I tried it. The difficulty is that the modern commercial beauty shop use version just isn't strong enough to do the job. Lab grade should be a better bet. I think we would need at least 50% -75% solution. I am not one to set up a still to fraction that out of home beauty shop solution.
That reaction plus the burning keratin would need an industrial strength fume hood..as if the horn cooking was not enough!
Interesting!
~Richard
You'll typically find H2O2 in 30% concentrations max for lab grade applications (look at Fisher or Sigma Aldrich - not sure if they sell to the general public though). I'd be very scared of a 75% solution of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer
Yes be very very careful with high concentrate peroxide. I've had some experience with it and the horror stories from the trainers are folks that try to make high concentrate at home, and once they reach the tipping point, next thing they know the kitchen is on fire. You've got the oxidizer built in and take off scary quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScienceGuy
As part of training we poured 90% H2O2 onto a normal tennis shoe. It was like a torch. No igniter needed - just reaction with the organics.
hidrogen peroxide is not flammable as far as I know, but it does supports burning, it definitely can cause skin "burns" when concentrated.. I guess you could use it for bleaching also?
@geezer: H2O2 is oxidizer, this is sth you might need at the end...
first you must reduce the the -S-S- bonds resulting in -SH HS- ... in this state a remodelling the form would have to take place and than at the end removing the reducing agent, maybe oxidizing as well (where peroxide can come into place) but take care that the oxidation won't damage the horn .. I think the best thing would be to ask an older hairdresser how they did it..
reducers that we use (in the lab) are eg B-mercaptoethanol, dithiotreithol, but these are extremely strong, toxic, cancerogenic (fumes also) and would not be a good choice,.. not to mention that the smell like ****** ..
when you do this stuff definitely take care of the fumes, take care of skin and eyes protection also, you are doing with high temps, pressure, aggressive chemicals (i guess) and high pressure (to some extent)!!
Thanks guys! I did not intend to go further with the Peroxide experiments. Rocket science I do not need. I prefer to get to heaven the slow way!You have supplied a good answer to others who may consider the idea!
Respectfully
~Richard
I really don't think you need to worry about oxidizers. Horn is a thermoplastic, so you can just heat it until it becomes pliable, then work, then cool, and the working will be set. I don't think hair is strictly thermoplastic on its own, hence the need to engineer a different way to permanently curl it (as you said generally with new disulphide bond linkages after hair proteins are moved to a different conformation).
I also am not sure about the composition, presence and frequence of disulphide bonds. Since they are evolutionary speaking originating from hair i think they should have pretty similar composition.
Oxidizers: what you need is REDUCENT, not oxidizer. The oxidizer might be used at the end to stabilize the form. Also oxidizers might hydrolize the ceratin etc, so I would defenetely apply them with caution.
When I read your previous post, I was thinking about just the same chemicals. I work with dithiothreitol a lot currently and I'm relieved it doesn't smell as bad as beta-mercaptoethanol. I once carefully smelled a 1000x dilution of the latter and nearly choked.Quote:
Originally Posted by miha
As for the horn, I just ordered an untreated horn without doing the research first, which is my regular way of doing things. Can I make scales from it without pressing or treating it?
Absolutely! This thread discussion is more towards pressing horn design into scales.
Thanks, that's good news! I bought a 50 cm streaked and pretty straight cow horn for €20, which should arrive on Tuesday. If I can make a couple of scales out of that and a brush or two without the need of any more tools/equipment than I currently have, I'm going to call that money well spent.
Meanwhile, I'll be reading up on horn. If you have links to good info, I'm all ears :)
The next step, here, obviously, is making a metal mold that'll fit into a righteous vise that in turn will fit into a nicely heat-controlled oven.
Things I wonder about:
- Does the mold need to be gradually tightened?
- What sort of releasing agents would be good? Old school was tallow, but I wonder about things like modern non-stick cooking juice.
- I had always assumed simple iron molds, but there are a lot of other materials that might be up to the job and easier to work with.
- Am I going to be evicted because of the smell?
I would think you could preheat the platens and your horn, then just tighten outside of the oven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmonster
1. No clue. But I would think a one-time tightening would work.
2. You should still be able to get tallow if you look around.
3. Just have to look into the mold-horn wetting properties so you don't glue the horn to the mold. But other materials should work as well, as long as the thermal properties of steel molds aren't overly specific to the process.
4. Yes
This has been a great thread thanks Geezer.
It has sparked an experiment with me to see what the definition you would get in horn if you heat a punch and under pressure (drill press) hot stamp horn. I have a friends Plumacher razor that needs rescale it has a wonderful inlay badge (Blue Wonder) on the front scale. I would love to dig out the badge from the old scale and being a Tool & Die maker form grind in a piece of steel the outside shape of the badge heat up the stamp and hot stamp the shape of badge into the horn. So all I would have to do is glue the badge into the stamped cavity.
This morning I did a test with a dowel pin with a flattened end a torch and my drill press. I was astonished to see the definition and the depth you could get doing this.
I did three hits from the same heating with no down stops. The first pull was the hottest and did the most depth. as the pin cooled the depths became shallower.
The depths are as follows
First hit .053" deep
Second hit .016" deep
Third hit .004" deep
I was stunned to see the definition it gave, the corners are nice and sharp.
Attachment 154177
Attachment 154178
Attachment 154179
After this successful test, I think I will try to do this hot stamp inlay badge process.
Thanks for the ideas guys.
Darl (Tarkus)
I guess you could use leather stamps tools, like those :
16pcs LEATHER WORKING SADDLE MAKING TOOLS CRAFTOOL LEATHER CRAFT STAMPS NEW-in Totes from Luggage & Bags on Aliexpress.com
Now were on to something here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaeris
Very cool Thaeris
You're welcome ;)
Here is a photo of the same test strip with a .015" thick stamped piece of shim stock press into the .016" hole
Attachment 154181
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkus
I also use a soldering iron with a small flat plate attached and that heat to stamp the inlays removed from Celluloid razors into the new acrylic scales. IT is so far a guess as to the exact heat there but it works with a short time in contact. I like the leather stamps and believe that they would work to press old (lead mix) pewter into a undercut horn scale like back in the day. My shop is pretty well uninhabitable during really cold weather so i am behind on experiments!
I am happy to see this thread taking a life of its own!
~Richard
I just had a brilliant idea! :idea: I am going over to Texas Knifemaker's Supply and abscond with a little State of Texas seal they have. THEN, I will persuade Tarkus to make some scales for a pitiful blade which needs clothes...:w
I might happen to include said seal for him to smoke a hole and inlay it.
I feel enlightened! :D
Really (sarcastically)Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
Oh boy that's a relief
Har!!!
