When Pins Cannot Be Tightened

Yesterday I tried to tighten the pins on a recently acquired Greaves. Tap Tap Tap over Tap Tap Tap over...and so on. The tapping seemed to do nothing. I am by nature get a bigger hammer person but this razor is a treasure to me and I don't want to do something foolish. And I don't want to de-pin the razor.
Has anyone experienced this and found a reasonable solution. It was not a problem shaving as the scales seemed to stay put by friction on the short end above the pin. But stropping was not fun as the scales offered practically no resistance.

Pivot pin is most likly bent.

The pin may be bent or the pivot hole is worn and larger than the pin. Can you move the blade around when opening and closing? Does it move toward and back or up and down?

Nope, just tried, snug as a bug. But if you hold the blade and scales and drop blade (holding parallel) the blade drops 90 degrees. And the scales as noted above keep their position when shaving. It is just the stropping that is a problem. I hope over time I can work with this by not relying on my 'extra' fingers on the scales to stabilize the operation....a bent pivot pin makes me feel a little sick.
Thanks everyone for the help.

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Originally Posted by bouschie

The pin may be bent or the pivot hole is worn and larger than the pin. Can you move the blade around when opening and closing? Does it move toward and back or up and down?

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In reality, an enlarged Pivot hole has nothing to do with scale tension againest the tang.

roger that, this is the only razor I have where the scales taper inward and create the friction on the tang which holds the scales parallel to the blade if holding the blade. I'm assuming this is not intentional, just old scales going where they feel like going.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

In reality, an enlarged Pivot hole has nothing to do with scale tension againest the tang.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

In reality, an enlarged Pivot hole has nothing to do with scale tension againest the tang.

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so what keeps a (heavy) blade open about 45 degrees? just tension/friction between the scales and the tang?

Let me share a little secret trick that might work. Carbon Paste. This is the stuff that bike mechanics use in slip joints (seat posts/stems) so that the parts have enough friction to bind properly without over-torque (carbon-fiber parts are fragile in that regard). I use carbon paste on full-metal slip joints sometimes.

One might take a q-tip by the bike shop and ask them for a smear of carbon paste. Or they might give you a "sample" sized packet. Or they may be hardballers and sell you a whole container.

Or you can "borrow" that technology and add a little "slurry" to your rust preventative oil and dab that into the friction area.

I had one recently that tightened up beautifully, then got wet, so i oiled the pivot, then it "got loose" so I re-peened, it went crooked, then i had to heat it, etc. It was a battle i should have carbon-pasted!

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Originally Posted by globaldev

so what keeps a (heavy) blade open about 45 degrees? just tension/friction between the scales and the tang?

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Yes, friction between the tang,thrust washers if present, and the scales,simple mechanics

I could be wrong but before I ever set hammer to pin I tried to think what was I actually doing. This is what I came up with: I was shortening the pin thereby increasing the diameter. This increased the friction, pretty easy to visualize, just never had anyone tell me if it is right or not.

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Originally Posted by globaldev

so what keeps a (heavy) blade open about 45 degrees? just tension/friction between the scales and the tang?

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Originally Posted by WW243

I could be wrong but before I ever set hammer to pin I tried to think what was I actually doing. This is what I came up with: I was shortening the pin thereby increasing the diameter. This increased the friction, pretty easy to visualize, just never had anyone tell me if it is right or not.

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So are you saying peening increases the pin diameter that in turn tightens the blade by friction in the pivot hole?

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Originally Posted by WW243

I could be wrong but before I ever set hammer to pin I tried to think what was I actually doing. This is what I came up with: I was shortening the pin thereby increasing the diameter. This increased the friction, pretty easy to visualize, just never had anyone tell me if it is right or not.

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Actually or ideally, no. You should be peening the pin which means that the metal is being mushroomed at the ends only. This does shorten the pin, and there may be some "fattening" too, but this is what you are trying to avoid. The enhanced friction is provided by the mushroom head pressing onto the scales onto the tang.

tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap check tap tap tap tap ...

Try no to hit hard enough to "swell" the pin. Bent pins are a bit of a chore to get out, but are very easy to do when the hole in the blade becomes enlarged with moisture over the decades/centuries. Bushing is good!

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Originally Posted by WadePatton

Actually or ideally, no. You should be peening the pin which means that the metal is being mushroomed at the ends only. This does shorten the pin, and there may be some "fattening" too, but this is what you are trying to avoid. The enhanced friction is provided by the mushroom head pressing onto the scales onto the tang.

tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap check tap tap tap tap ...

Try no to hit hard enough to "swell" the pin. Bent pins are a bit of a chore to get out, but are very easy to do when the hole in the blade becomes enlarged with moisture over the decades/centuries. Bushing is good!

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agreed:))))))))))))

Yes but if the pin is bent, as Pixel suggested, as you tap, it is working like a little spring and bouncing right back. Lots have bent pins! ;)

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Originally Posted by WW243

I could be wrong but before I ever set hammer to pin I tried to think what was I actually doing. This is what I came up with: I was shortening the pin thereby increasing the diameter. This increased the friction, pretty easy to visualize, just never had anyone tell me if it is right or not.

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i think your explanation isn't super clear as i read it two ways.. 1) the pin (inside or outside? depending on what you mean) diameter was increasing friction 2) the shortening was increasing friction

visualizing what the goal is and the process. in my mind, you are trying to create the "rivet head" increasing that head diameter, while at the same time shortening the pin (becuase the rivet head you are creating) which creates the pressure , all the while not bending the pin.

i guess it make sense that you need to start with the right length of pinning material.. too long and it's likely gonna bend

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didn't see the add'l info..

There are a ton of posts I know I have, that show the old pins coming out, you would be amazed at what they look like, they are little springs in there just like the guys are saying.

Like Wade described you are actually trying to create a Mushroom (peen) hitting the pin directly down is not the objective, the better the "Ball" is on your Ballpeen Hammer the easier this is to accomplish.. You want to actually strike off the dead center top of the pin and off the side center of the hammer to create the ideal peen which will tighten the razor..

If you watch the Vid I have up on Youtube I explain this way better and show the rolling motion and circular tapping much better..

The biggest problems for people starting off, is hitting too hard and hitting dead center..

just out of curiousity, i have been using brass pins, but when i see the niag pins (i think thats what they are) there typical much flatter and wider heads.. the brass usually aren't similar looking.. is that the difference because of softness? does that affect the pinning loosening after a while?

I take it back!

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

So are you saying peening increases the pin diameter that in turn tightens the blade by friction in the pivot hole?

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My visualization was a good one, it just was not right. Anyway, the razor is around 160 years old and the pinning looks like the method used on ivory rather than horn, that is, there appears to be no collar or maybe over the years the collar was smashed into the pin....

Attachment 155707Here is what I am talking about. Actually it does sort of look like there was a collar there at one time and it looks too big to be the ivory type of pinning....

I'm doomed!

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Yes but if the pin is bent, as Pixel Isuggested, as you tap, it is working like a little spring and bouncing right back. Lots have bent pins! ;)

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Originally Posted by WW243

I'm doomed!

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Not so bad. It would behoove you to drill the head off of at least one side and gently wrestle it out. You will see what you have!
I have seen crushed scales which never got tight with bent pins. As one is installed, it might be slightly bent, but works fine.
A hundred years later, the horn has dried out and as trying to tighten, too much tapping will result in the pin folding on over. From there, it is hopeless!
As to pin length, I have a saying 'Always make the top pin too short. If you make it just right, it will be too long!' :D
We must take into consideration the extreme taper of the tang on most old Sheffields. As you peen to tighten, the scale will need to conform to this taper. This tends to make pins seeming just right too long! Also the taper is reversed as the razor is opened fully. The ends of the scales may bind on the tang. I tighten a lot of them with the razor half or fully open and sometimes add a spacer on either or both sides to even things out. All are different, it seems!

Like I said, I'm doomed.
Now for the good news, yesterday after a long session on the hones, stropping (length end to end about a miles worth, thanks Darl) and using MDC for the first time I got the best shave to date based on fun x efficiency. So the next caretaker in line will have to do the drilling and refining. I'm just a simple caveman who got lucky on the bay. Plus, I thought behooving was more of a blacksmith thing.

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Not so bad. It would behoove you to drill the head off of at least one side and gently wrestle it out. You will see what you have!
I have seen crushed scales which never got tight with bent pins. As one is installed, it might be slightly bent, but works fine.
A hundred years later, the horn has dried out and as trying to tighten, too much tapping will result in the pin folding on over. From there, it is hopeless!
As to pin length, I have a saying 'Always make the top pin too short. If you make it just right, it will be too long!' :D
We must take into consideration the extreme taper of the tang on most old Sheffields. As you peen to tighten, the scale will need to conform to this taper. Also the taper is reversed as the razor is opened fully. I tighten a lot of them with the razor half open and sometimes add a spacer on either side to even thing out. All are different, it seems!

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If you have to repin it there are alot of ways to remove the pins. You can drill it out, flush cutters work, but if the scales are brittle they can snap the scales, and what I like to use most times if I can get it into the pivot is a jewelers saw and just cut the pin in half and pull it out. There are alot of videos of how to repin a razor. Just remember to not use alot of pressure cause that can cause a pin to bend. Good luck and take it slow. Broken scales mean more work.