Pivot Pin hole stretched?

Hello guys,
I have this wade and butcher that was not tightening up when using the traditional tightening methods. After closer examination I have found that the actual hole in the steel must be warped or not a perfect circle any more. Is there any way to make this better without repinning? Will repinning even fix the issue? I have done some searching but get lost in the forums about pin tightening and not this specific problem.

Thanks for the input.


Attachment 156723these images show the "difference" in the blade sliding in the pivot pin hole


Attachment 156724

You will need to sleeve the pivot hole to fix it, this can be done in several ways, one is described here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...zed-pivot.html

Common for them all is that it needs to be unpinned.

Sleeving the pivot hole is the easiest method for worn out pivot holes. Alot of times if the pin is bent from peening to hard it will act as a spring and not allow the scales to tighten. Just remember to be careful with the collars and try to save them. I always have a hard time saving them.

If you are reluctant to unpin the razor because of experience or lack thereof (I would include myself here), consider sending it out as it looks to be a nice razor.

I did one today as it happens. Sadly i cant seem to attach photos with TapaTalk.

I used a spring-steel roll-pin cut to size which acted as a sleeve for the razor. Piece of cake. A small peening hammer was a god send when repinning it - trying with a claw hammer at first quickly changed my mind as to the benefit of investing in a peen hammer. $4 from a local discount store and i don't resent paying it either.

I use this stuff. Cut a piece off and cut a slot into it so it will fit into the hole. You can spend 20 minutes trying to bend a flat piece into shape, but I have better things to do with my time.

I find it simpler to use what ever size K&S tubing won't quite fit into the hole and then drill the tang for that tubing. Use the progression of tubing sizes to step down to 1/16" ID for your pin.

You can do all of the above and I have when re scaling. But if you have a nice razor as you appear to have… it is just the character and charm of a razor that is well over a hundred years old. Just be careful when closing the blade.

Don’t know why we sometimes seem to obsess about making good old things… new. More and more now, especially with very old razors… I give them a very good cleaning, polish the blade and scales a bit, hone gently and enjoy them.

It will still shave well and has most probably been that way for well over a century in the hands of many a "temporary" custodian.

If I am inside the scales, it means they are going to be replaced. If I am up for that, I am going to be certain that things are as good as they can be. Bushing a pivot hole takes less than 5 minutes...

One finds oneself in a dilemma there, apropos the debate as to altering something very old.

Seeing as the sleeving will be invisible when the scales are repinned, it seems inoffensive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Splashone

I find it simpler to use what ever size K&S tubing won't quite fit into the hole and then drill the tang for that tubing. Use the progression of tubing sizes to step down to 1/16" ID for your pin.

---

Than peen all in place,Use a 1/16th drill bit using a pinvice to clean up the new pivot,Done.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...espivot002.jpg

I recently faced a similar situation and the responses were likewise similar. I'm wondering if the OP is concerned that once unpinned and repined, the razor might not be the razor that he has now which it won't be. My mentor advised me against unpinning unless it was absolutely necessary. Why? In my case it is the unique nature of the pins on my razor, but in the OP's case he may simply not want to risk an accident, spend the coin for a professional....who knows. Sleeving will be invisible but how many craftsman can duplicate the original pinning? I like others do not see this as a simple decision. My mentor suggested that if the razor is dangerous to strop or to shave with.....then you will probably have to unpin. You know, Mentor sounds kind of formal...let's call him the Madman of Philly and if you ever want to see top notch work....find something he worked on....I don't think he knows less than perfect.

The holes don't get "worn out" or "stretched", it's the way they were made. I personally don't worry about it. Then again, I'm one of those guys who finds a deep dark patina beautiful too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

The holes don't get "worn out" or "stretched", it's the way they were made. I personally don't worry about it. Then again, I'm one of those guys who finds a deep dark patina beautiful too.

---

Do you honestly believe the pivot holes were made elongated??

Quote:

---

Do you honestly believe the pivot holes were made elongated??

---

Yes, because the holes where made with a punch while the steel was hot. They were not drilled, like most people would do today. The steel is much harder then the brass pins so, if anything was going to wear, it would be the pins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChrisMeyer

Yes, because the holes where made with a punch while the steel was hot. They were not drilled, like most people would do today. The steel is much harder then the brass pins so, if anything was going to wear, it would be the pins.

---

Disagree,Every one I have ever seen has a huge amt of rust, The brass pin will work against the rust and steel to wear out the pivot hole.
JMO

He's right when it comes to the older English razors, their holes are most always off in some way or another. Think about it, hardened steel versus brass...pin will loose every time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Do you honestly believe the pivot holes were made elongated??

---

Yes. They were hotpunched, not drilled. I know this for a fact.

And if you take a blade like that apart, you'll typically see an intact brass pin and a warped hole. If the wear would be such that 1/16 of hardened steel would be worn away, the brass would be long gone as well. Additionally, if you look closer, you'll see that the inside of the hole is uneven, and the hole is stretched in places where it has never been touched by the straight brass rod.

Blades like that looked like that when they left the anvil.

If cutlers those days thought it was perfectly fin for a high end razor like that to have that kind of pivot hole, I daresay it's not going to be a big problem. Btw, not only W&B had those kinds of pivot holes. Most of the sheffield blades of that erea I've taken apart had punched holes.

EDIT: I've even seen this on blades that have never seen use and of which the blade and tang didn't show any indication that they'd ever been used / gotten wet.

That type of hole was definitely punched - I have seen pictures of it and read contemporary accounts of it being done.

On a near mint razor that has been punched you can often see the distortion in the steel caused by the punch.

No doubt the punch started out reasonably small, round and even at the end, but whacking it through the tang so it hit the anvil must have distorted it sooner or later. I suppose the punch was annealed, re-shaped and re-tempered at some point, though, before it got too misshapen.

As for examples that have had a good deal of use (or which have been looked after badly) it is common to see a lot of rust and muck in the hole. Hardened steel still rusts. Any water left in the hole will rust the inside of the hole. Rust expands, so the pin is rubbing the soft rust off the inside of the hole. Which is subtly different to soft brass wearing hardened steel, which is extremely improbable.

Regards,
Neil

When I stripped down my razor yesterday, it had the combination of muck and just that Neil describes. Hopefully I'll take more diligent care of it than former owners seem to have!

Everything about this razor looks great; blade, scales, pins and washers. I wouldn't change anything, a little slippage is just part of its antique authenticity and charm.

At least to me, an elongated Pivot hole is a defect so I always repair them.
My thinking Is that the brass pin acts as a lap against the Iron oxide and wears the steel,I may be wrong here.
I do not like having a blade snap back and fourth and on a re-scale,if left like that,one has take it under consideration when making the wedge.
JMOs

Sleeving works great if it fits, without movement. You could also try filling the hole with high grade hard epoxy, and drill a new hole through it. Beware, some epoxies bond well to steel, others do not. I have use Gorilla epoxy with a variety of metals, its amazing.

What a rusty pivot hole looks like:

Attachment 157029

The hole is packed with rust, there is a small chunk to the lower right of the hole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hart

What a rusty pivot hole looks like:

Attachment 157029

The hole is packed with rust, there is a small chunk to the lower right of the hole.

---

Thats ugly,by the time you get all that rust out of there you may need a 1/4in. pin:)

If you want to go quick and easy and you dont really need any manufacturing . Slide a stainless steel pop rivet in the pivot pin hole. Actually use a pop rivet tool and swell the pop in the hole while allowing the tool to cut the mandrel of then. Once the rivet is set sand off the rivet head and any mushroom that the mandrel swelled and presto. Laugh if you will it works and works quite effectively. I have Tom to thank for that brilliant idea. (You evil madman). The fact that it swells in all the nooks and crannies usually keeps it from moving out.
Then theres the second option which I has been already said a carbide endmill to bore a clean hole and a engine lathe to turn a shiny new bushing.

I do both depending how lazy I am that day.

I just noticed the pivot hole on a razor I was working on and it is elongated, but not from rusting and wear. You can see the indentation on one side where it was punched out. The picture is pretty bad, but I think you can see it. The hole isn't that bad, but there is a little bit of movement so I would probably sleeve it.

Attachment 157076

I used a ink pens plastic tube when I had this problem.

All the badly miss-shapen pin holes i've seen so far, were also quite "cratery" and obviously the product of many years of a drop of water here and a drop of water there. I have no problem with a square-ish punched hole, but i have a huge problem with a worn-the-freak-wonky hole that allows the blade to shift back and forth excessively or won't snug up for safe stropping.

And since i do believe that filling the hole with epoxy and drilling will vastly reduce the surfaces where water can collect and hide and create further damage. That's the way i prefer to fix them. It does require more time than bushing, but also allows me to offset the blade as much as possible (within the crater) to counter any scale shrinkage.

But most of the time i can get a pin to snug up without ever looking inside.

Seeing how funky a hole can get helps a fella (this one) be diligent about keeping the pivot dry and oiled, but we can't be perfect.

Well, i finally was able to get all the supplies needed. Took her apart and get her back together with a brass sleeve. Thanks for all of the suggestions, and details on the history. It may be like that on purpose, but if they had the means to make it to tighter tolerances, they would have. Now shes nice and tight. Also it did not have any washers in between the scales and blade, so i put them on there. Could not be more impressed, and it was my first unpinning/pinning. I am currently doing this razors bigger brother, a 7/8 version with custom lava flow kirinite scales. its almost done and looks amazing.