Best procedure to 're-round' the pivot hole using brass sleeve insert?

Ok, so Im working on a second razor to do a minor restore on. I got it off ebay, and i think the seller just buffed out the blade without taking the scales off, so half of the work has been done for me ;)
But anyways, i need to 're-round' the pivot hole, and I think Im set on using a brass sleeve insert (unless one of you guys can convince otherwise ;) ), but my question is how do I ensure that the sleeve will sit in there straight?
My current plan is to drill just a tiny bit of metal out (making the hole 1/4 inch, as it is almost there already) and then just throw the insert in. Im just not sure how i can guarantee ill drill straight due to the awkward shape of how the original pin wore into the shank.
Here are some pictures:
Attachment 157694
Attachment 157695
Attachment 157696
Attachment 157697
Thanks for all the help!

It is shaped like that as it was done with a punch press, not at all uncommon.
You may well be able to tap brass tube in place and flare the ends like a rivet and "fix" it with very little work,
without dimensioning the holes I cannot say for certain.
There are numerous threads with methods that are time proven, unless it is really big and causes issues I generally pin it and go.

1/4 drill bit? You (and your bit), might regret that! ;) Here is what I generally do, if I do it at all. I pop a 1/8 aluminum pop rivet in the hole and tap out the mandrel, which is 1/16. Dermel drum sand the head and excess off. You then have a tight-fitting aluminum bushing with a 1/16 hole. The soft aluminum rivet conforms to the odd-shaped hole in the tang and is easily filed internally if it is not perfectly straight.

Attachment 157705Attachment 157706

That is an older sheffield. I can almost guarantee the tang is not hardened. A 1/8 HSS or cobalt drill should go through that hole with very little problem. Just make very sure that you have something in place to prevent the blade from spinning like a propellor.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Just make very sure that you have something in place to prevent the blade from spinning like a propellor.

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I know to hold things in place to prevent spinning, but it has never occurred to me till this very moment the consequences of failing to do so when drilling a razor. Thank you for a frightening image that will ensure my safety! Even so I'll drill it on front side so if it does go, its the spine that is leading if its starts spinning ;)

You can actually do a very accurate job with a fine round needle file.

If you are going to bore that hole to bush it tight all the way through, be sure to account for any taper in the tang. If not, it is not going to swing on plane with the blade and you will have issues with hitting the scales or the blade will be cocked in relation to the scales.

Most of those punched holes are tapered. I just drill them to the size of the smallest tubing that won't fit through. That mean that when bushed, the blade pivots cleanly on the center of the hole without movement "fore and aft" but is still able to "rock" on the pin (because the bushing only contacts the minor diameter of the hole) to account for the hole being a few degrees off of perpendicular to the plane of the blade.

I hope you understand my explanation...

I have NEVER drilled a tang...

I have 3 sizes of brass tubing I check the smallest first then add as needed,,, The bushing does not need to be tight in fact you might find as has been hinted at already you might be very sorry if you make it a tight fit :(

If my smallest size of brass tubing 1/16 ID x 1/8 OD doesn't fit in the hole easily, then it doesn't need a bushing....

To be honest the only reason we ever started putting bushings in there, is that we started to build custom scales to a tighter tolerance between the Wedge and the Razor and having the razor shift was not an option :)


Just another viewpoint and a small bit of experience

Fitting tubing and or solid rod is as above.

If the tubing deforms or you use solid rod to plug the hole, then consider using a few thousandths undersized drill bit for the pin and an exact size reamer to finish a perfectly round hole for the pivot pin. Most drill bits produce a triangular hole that might bind on rotation.

Example: 1/8 drill = 0.125, drill 0.120 and ream to 0.125. If you hole is perpendicular the pivot should track straight down the middle of the scale like you want. More work but my OCD is particularly active today.

Alright so I considered all of your advice and decided to drill anyways. I think if the situation was different, I would not have drilled the tang. Here is why: The amount of metal I ended up needing to remove was so insignificant, but now i can fit the next size of tubing with virtually no play (which this razor obviously had a considerable amount of, and the edge of the blade kept hitting the scales): Here are some pictures to show:
Attachment 157917
Attachment 157918
Attachment 157919
Also I would like to say that in my original post I said that i was going to drill to 1/4 inch, and if you have not inferred already I meant 1/8 inch ;)

Oh Good! I was wondering about that! :D

Another, easier approach perhaps is to insert a small pice of solid brass rod, peen it, file it, and then drill a hole through it.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Another, easier approach perhaps is to insert a small pice of solid brass rod, peen it, file it, and then drill a hole through it.

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Would this be better than using a hardened epoxy with a hole? Or is it mainly preference?

I have a theory on those oversized holes in tangs. Lots, if not most, old Sheffies used no washers between scales and tang. As the razor is opened, the angled tang is swung around and the forces from it are applied to the scales in different places throughout the entire sweep of motion. A larger hole, regardless of shape, allows the blade to 'slip' to even out this pressure through the motion keeping the same pressure whatever the position is. I only bush a pivot when it is dictated by blade-to-wedge clearance. I figure they knew what they were doing with those big holes! :shrug:

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

I have a theory on those oversized holes in tangs. Lots, if not most, old Sheffies used no washers between scales and tang. As the razor is opened, the angled tang is swung around and the forces from it are applied to the scales in different places throughout the entire sweep of motion. A larger hole, regardless of shape, allows the blade to 'slip' to even out this pressure through the motion keeping the same pressure whatever the position is. I only bush a pivot when it is dictated by blade-to-wedge clearance. I figure they knew what they were doing with those big holes! :shrug:

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Back in they day, the razor makers were, IMO cranking out razors that may have cost $1, probebly quik and dirty work.
Punching a wierd shaped hole was maybe the norm,nobody cared.
But today we have the abilitys to make a perfect hole for a round pin,is only sound mechanics.
Doing a resto on a fine blade without sound mechanics (the proper pin and pivot hole, properly sized) is just plain wrong JMO

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Back in they day, the razor makers were, IMO cranking out razors that may have cost $1, probebly quik and dirty work.
Punching a wierd shaped hole was maybe the norm,nobody cared.
But today we have the abilitys to make a perfect hole for a round pin,is only sound mechanics.
Doing a resto on a fine blade without sound mechanics (the proper pin and pivot hole, properly sized) is just plain wrong JMO

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And then another school of thought! Anyway, they cannot be seen, once pinned. I have had no issues leaving them alone.
After bushing lots and then not, I really see no difference. Seems bushing for the sake of....er....Bushing! JMO

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

And then another school of thought! Anyway, they cannot be seen, once pinned. I have had no issues leaving them alone.
After bushing lots and then not, I really see no difference. Seems bushing for the sake of....er....Bushing! JMO

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On my own restos,I cannot tolorate a blade that clicks back and fourth with a round pivot and a mishapen hole,is just my way.
we all do what we do.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

On my own restos,I cannot tolorate a blade that clicks back and fourth with a round pivot and a mishapen hole,is just my way.
we all do what we do.

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Never heard an old Sheffield 'click' If pinned tightly. Yes. We all do what we do. In my restoration of certain razors of historical significance, things are left as they were. Things done are done like they were done originally. That is what SOME of us do, anyway. Anything CAN be done. Whether or not is IS done is up to the individual's desires. Just opined that it seems not necessary in most cases.
JMO

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Never heard an old Sheffield 'click' If pinned tightly. Yes. We all do what we do. In my restoration of certain razors of historical significance, things are left as they were. Things done are done like they were done originally. That is what SOME of us do, anyway. Anything CAN be done. Whether or not is IS done is up to the individual's desires. Just opined that it seems not necessary in most cases.
JMO

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If pinned tightly, granted the blade will be fine, until the trust washers wear and the pivot becomes loose, may take 100 yrs.
Overtightning a pivot to compensate for an oversized hole is just wrong,IMO

Oh, Pixel?? I DID mention the absence of thrust washers in old Sheffields. I know not what you mean by overtightening a pivot to compensate for a "oversized" hole which is not oversized. It is the original hole put in by the maker which has been fine for 100+ years! It is just larger than you like 100+ years later as you see it out of the scales, that's all. ;)
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Fact: Old Sheffields came with punched irregular holes. You cannot argue that this statement is indeed true, or in other words, right! Nothing wrong about it, buddy!
Not the intention of this thread and certainly seems a futile subject with some.
I shall now 'wobble and click' out of this thread and take my huge, irregular pivot holes with me.
My apologies to the OP for my apparent role in derailing the original discussion!
Good Nite! ;)

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Oh, Pixel?? I DID mention the absence of thrust washers in old Sheffields. I know not what you mean by overtightening a pivot to compensate for a "oversized" hole which is not oversized. It is the original hole put in by the maker which has been fine for 100+ years! It is just larger than you like 100+ years later as you see it out of the scales, that's all. ;)
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Fact: Old Sheffields came with punched irregular holes. You cannot argue that this statement is indeed true, or in other words, right! Nothing wrong about it, buddy!
Not the intention of this thread and certainly seems a futile subject with some.
I shall now 'wobble and click' out of this thread and take my huge, irregular pivot holes with me.
My apologies to the OP for my apparent role in derailing the original discussion!
Good Nite! ;)

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calm down my friend,have had my share of loose holes,I like tight holes:) have a great night.

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Originally Posted by rvrboy17

Would this be better than using a hardened epoxy with a hole? Or is it mainly preference?

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Epoxy will work, just remember that if you lay the tang down flat, your 90° drill press won't be going through the tang at 90° on many razors due to the sides of the tang not being parallel. I used to epoxy mine when I needed to fill a large hole, but have not done so for quite a while. No particular reason other than having some tubing lying around. I suspect another part of the reason was me having doubts about how durable the epoxy would be in the long run, but I suspect they will all long outlive me. :)

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

Epoxy will work, just remember that if you lay the tang down flat, your 90° drill press won't be going through the tang at 90° on many razors due to the sides of the tang not being parallel. I used to epoxy mine when I needed to fill a large hole, but have not done so for quite a while. No particular reason other than having some tubing lying around. I suspect another part of the reason was me having doubts about how durable the epoxy would be in the long run, but I suspect they will all long outlive me. :)

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Im still making the scales of my first restore. I haven't looked closely at the tang enough yet to notice the angle. So by doing the brass tube, it, in theory, retains the angle... Assuming you don't have to drill the hole out to fit the tube. Thanks!