Horn stabilization problems

Hi gang,
I have bought and used horn from various suppliers over the past few years.
All of it seems to be unstable as to length over a period of time. The only way my rescales seem to stay straight is when the razor is straight up and down in a stand or hanging from the tail from a magnet. ADn, yes, I do use the same side of the blank for the inside of both scales to reduce beding error over time.
Any one sided support seems to cause difficulties.

Is there a way to stabilize modern horn? I believe old horn was heat presed and tht caused cross linking of the chitan strands which prevented them sliding by each other due to outside factors like humidity.
Any ideas?
Thanks
~Richard

Hell it warps on me before I get the scales made! Last go I had a heat gun out straightening the sheet before cutting.

Hone is a natural material that is made by nature into a curve, we try and tell Mother Natural that we want it straight :p

Even the Vintage scales warp(ed) I am pretty sure the Heat Pressing helped it but it wasn't perfect either...

All you can do is try and buy the best you can and leave it in a press until it is time to use it

A press can be as simple as two-three $3 C-Clamps and two pieces of straight Hardwood leave the Horn in there until it is time to use.. Honestly this might not be the news that many want to hear because many of you don't buy ahead...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Hone is a natural material that is made by nature into a curve, we try and tell Mother Natural that we want it straight :p
Even the Vintage scales warp(ed) I am pretty sure the Heat Pressing helped it but it wasn't perfect either...
All you can do is try and buy the best you can and leave it in a press until it is time to use it
A press can be as simple as two-three $3 C-Clamps and two pieces of straight Hardwood leave the Horn in there until it is time to use.. Honestly this might not be the news that many want to hear because many of you don't buy ahead...

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Thanks Glen, I been doing that! Maybe using cut off and reduced to using thickness blanks in the press would be better? Hate to have to buy a Paninni grill just for horn scales!
Thanks again!
~Richard

Panini grill on order!
~Richard

As Glen says,horn like Ivory and wood will move with changes is the weather,keep it clamped in place always until ready to use.
With horn blanks I do a one day soak in neatsfoot oil,clamp between severel layers of Newspaper.
Remove what you want, than reclamp.
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You may be able to get horn stabilized, like wood.
Try KNG and see if they can do it

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Originally Posted by mainaman

You may be able to get horn stabilized, like wood.
Try KNG and see if they can do it

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Not, horn is not pourous like wood or even Ivory, which I have resin stabilized.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Not, horn is not pourous like wood or even Ivory, which I have resin stabilized.

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K&G does it, and others as well
Custom Stabilizing

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Originally Posted by mainaman

K&G does it, and others as well
Custom Stabilizing

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Stefan,people that charge, will claim they can resin stabilize anything, even a diamond.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Stefan,people that charge, will claim they can resin stabilize anything, even a diamond.

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They are one of the two major stabilizing businesses in US, I doubt they are just claiming things.
In any case IMO stabilizing material for scales is pointless, it does not work well. Stabilized wood is just as brittle as natural one when it is cut the wrong way, burls do not become tougher all of a sudden. I doubt horn will become less prone to warp.
The alternative is imitation horn acrylic but so far I have seen only round stock and not sheaths on line.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

They are one of the two major stabilizing businesses in US, I doubt they are just claiming things.
In any case IMO stabilizing material for scales is pointless, it does not work well. Stabilized wood is just as brittle as natural one when it is cut the wrong way, burls do not become tougher all of a sudden. I doubt horn will become less prone to warp.
The alternative is imitation horn acrylic but so far I have seen only round stock and not sheaths on line.

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Agree 100%.I think resin stabilizing is way overhyped.Resin stabilizing is not rocket science,anyone can do it.
It works well on spalted,pithey woods for sure but you cannot stabilize hardwoods, High oil content woods or woods with acid content such as redwood.
You mention burls,They are extreamly hard and dense.I do not think they could be stabilized.

Inquiring minds want to know ....... I know nothing about horn available for rescales nowadays but ....... having many vintage Sheffields, and what have you, made with horn back in the day, that did not warp, I'm wondering if the horn is different now, or could there have been a method the old timers used to stabilize the stuff ?

I've seen plenty with bug bites, cracked at pivot or wedge, but very few warped horn scales on vintage blades. Not saying there haven't been some with a slight warp, but I'm talking about to the point where it interfered with closing the razor. I've not seen that on a vintage (100 + years old) razor.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Inquiring minds want to know ....... I know nothing about horn available for rescales nowadays but ....... having many vintage Sheffields, and what have you, made with horn back in the day, that did not warp, I'm wondering if the horn is different now, or could there have been a method the old timers used to stabilize the stuff ?

I've seen plenty with bug bites, cracked at pivot or wedge, but very few warped horn scales on vintage blades. Not saying there haven't been some with a slight warp, but I'm talking about to the point where it interfered with closing the razor. I've not seen that on a vintage (100 + years old) razor.

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My experiance also Jim.The old sheffi horn scales were pretty thick,maybe thats why they do not warp.
I know from making Ivory scales,that if you start with dead flat material (well seasoned) once pinned they do not move,IF you are very carefull not to generate any heat when making them.
I know from making horn scales,If you hit them on a buffer and they get hot, they will warp instantly, JME

Went to my razor box this morning to pull today's shave and one of the horn scales on my W&B Fine India Steel has a crack in it! I finished that only about a month ago...not happy.

when thinking about the old horn, 100+, what was it? water buffalo, cape buffalo, moo cow? the asian and african horn to me seems stronger and more dense in composite than cow or bison.

these horns also seem to have longer and straighter areas that would seem less prone to warp. they are also without a doubt more dense. and since the europeans had such a presence in these countries it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case.

my thoughts. and this could have already been discussed and i am behind the times.

I have made a few powder horns and bow tips for archery but I don't have much experience with imported horn.
Below are some rambling thoughts on the stabilizing of horn.
I have steamed hardwood and I beleive the same process is used to straighten water buffalo horn.
Maybe repeated steaming/cooling cycles would help?
The horn, although very dense it will still have a certain moisture content internally.
Maybe try heat curing in an oven. The wife will oversee the project of course.
I would think the shrinkage lengthwise is a result of moisture loss over time and a prolonged heat curing should be benificial.
Maybe a whole summer clamped flat in solar powered hotbox would produce the ultimate cure?

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Originally Posted by Funstuff

when thinking about the old horn, 100+, what was it? water buffalo, cape buffalo, moo cow? the asian and african horn to me seems stronger and more dense in composite than cow or bison.

these horns also seem to have longer and straighter areas that would seem less prone to warp. they are also without a doubt more dense. and since the europeans had such a presence in these countries it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case.

my thoughts. and this could have already been discussed and i am behind the times.

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Interesting questions,one would think the sheffi blades used horn from India, or Africa back in the day.
I have had two seven day sets bought new from Wacker,the scales were always perfect,The paperwork for customs always stated the horn material was Bovine (cow) imported from france.

You guys are scaring me! I'm about to place an order for some 1/8" blond and streaked horn slabs to use in the fall so I can easily fall back into scale making once it gets too nasty out to fish. After reading this, I'm thinking maybe I should wait until September to do that.

There's been enough "old stock" pressed black horn scales on hand here up until now, so I haven't had to buy any more. The old stock is just a bunch of old scales in good shape as well as some blanks I'd accumulated - no horn slabs except one small one.

I'd never really heard about new horn being prone to warping quickly. I know to store it at around 1/8" thick to avoid delaminating but the warping is news to me. I fact, I do have a small horn slab here that's been in a drawer for about years that looks as straight as when I bought it. Well 15% humidity or less most of the time may be a factor in it remaining straight - and - I always keep my slabs (wood, MOP, etc) stacked - so maybe the combination of laying on a flat surface, with a little bit of weight on them, and the dry environment may be keeping all my slabs flat.

Anyone seeing warping in a really dry climate?

You haven't heard much about it because it is a very low percentage problem, and many places keep their stock pressed for months to years before it is sold...

Now with E-bay getting in on the action the horn is coming from many different sources and is of questionable age therefore this like many other parts of our hobby are changing so is this..

Trust me with this unfortunate fact

"Every single material we use for scales from the most stable G10's to the freshest Naturals, all come with a unique downside to using them as razor scales"

You just have to work enough different ones to find the issues of each


ps: As dry as the air is in Colorado, we should all probably send our Horn to you to store for us until we need to use it :p

This a perfect Example of what Glen is talking about,Couple yrs back I bought 10 slabs of rams horn (ebay).
When I got them they were perfectally Flat,I thru them in my horn box than forgot about them.
They all look like this today,I did not properly take care of them. They should have been Clamped in place till use.
They can be resurected,but you need to take care of natural materials.
Attachment 161899

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

ps: As dry as the air is in Colorado, we should all probably send our Horn to you to store for us until we need to use it :p

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Glen that is a seriously excellent but dangerous thought! I can easily envision a few 4 foot tall stacks of horn here. Thus far my wife has been patient and even accommodating about the razors and associated equipment and supplies, fly tying with all the fur and feathers, and those metal gadgets that give large animals lead poisoning - but if I requisitioned more space and added another pile to the mix I may get a little kickback! Maybe Max has a bit of space available in Vegas? It's probably even a few percentage points drier there - though for some reason I can never recall those types of details after a few days there...