Scales - vs- Tang -vs- Stropping

Over the years in this forum I have mentioned about those old farts making razors over last last few hundred years being pretty smart guys. I took the time years ago to sit down with a set of calipers. and good straight edge ruler and a magnifying glass, and attempted to learn not only what they did, by why they did it..

I learned quite a bit just by doing so..

One of the things that gets mentioned in passing but not directly is Tang vs Scale relationship and how it can effect stropping..

I was just stropping in some razors I had honed last night and one of them stood out as really difficult compared to the others. So I lined them up and took a picture of the area in question..

The issue is quite easy to spot and even easier to feel when try to flip and control the razor while stropping..

There is quite a varied lot in front of you in the pic, from vintage to new production to custom I tried to intentionally hide the names and makes so PLEASE even if you know don't blurt it out, that isn't important here.. The important part is to realize that the Tang scale juncture is pretty important with respect to function. If you take a second to hold your vintage razors, you will find that most of them are designed so that your thumb will rest comfortably right there and that the scales actually help with the razor flipping back and forth.. The size of the scales at that juncture will closely match the size of the tang when the razor is open so that it rolls easily in the fingers and thumb during the flip...

Don't take my word on this, if you are making scales, just take a few minutes and go test this yourself with your Vintage razors go strop them and see how easily they flow..

Anyway just a visual hint here for you while working on your scales

Attachment 170303

Obviously second from the Rgt would be a pita to strop.
I believe in what the old farts did so when I do a re-scale I copy Exact from the orig scales.
Not a fan of some of the fancy stuff people do with scales.

Hmm. I just finished up a set of scales for a W&B wedge. I'm going to have to go and look them over one more time now :shrug:

I would agree with pixelfixed. Per your post the 2nd from the right looks like it would be more difficult.

I'd say extreme right followed by second right are the problems.

This is something I'd never considered before even though I always draw the razor outline when designing scales. On a related issue, one other thing I now do with three pin razors is rotate the blade 180 degrees on the drawing to make sure the tail misses the third pin.

You can probably guess why I now do this. If you can't then try stropping a blade with the scales at 90 degrees.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I recently received a Federico ERN #66(or 99) that is a huge razor with a fat tang due to the tang scales. The scales themselves are also huge making for a difficult flip when stropping. It doesn't help that the edges of the tang are not rounded, they dig in when stropping. On the other hand I have an Orgill Bros. & Co "DeSoto razor that looks just like the ERN but much smaller and beveled edges on the tang allowing for a much smother roll. The example on the far right looks as if it would be easy to strop. The tang appears to have a rounded triangular cross section.

The moral of the story is........Cool has a cost. Great post Glen. Some don't even think about the consequences of their designs until it's all done and a pain in the wrist :<0)

So true,scale Ergonomics are very often overlooked in favor of wild and crazy.

Which one looks like it would roll the best?

When he first started out, one of the top custom makers put his scales/pivot end too close to the heel of the blade, making a very short area of tang to hold and flip. Made it very awkward to strop. It was doable but required relearning that particular razor every time I went to it. Presently making someone else happy. The second from the right is similar to what I'm talking about. Lynn, and maybe some others mentioned it to the guy and he began making his razors with a more generous space between the end of the scales and the tang. The short tangs looked cool though. :)

Another thing that really bugs me is custom scales with an overly wide taper towards the wedge end. Makes flipping the razor awkward in my stumpy hands.

I always make the scales the width of the tang. Even a little narrower is fine, but wider can be a real pain to strop.
When the razor is open for stropping the tang should line up nicely with the scales, too much curve to the scales also can cause stropping issues even when the scales are similar width with the tang.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

So true,scale Ergonomics are very often overlooked in favor of wild and crazy.

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Yas.
over the years I find that very classic shapes are the best looking. I believe that everything there was to invent as far as scale ergonomics has been invented already. Going away from traditional designs too much results in odd looking and uncomfortable for honing and stropping scales.

Great observation! Granted, im a relative newb, but of 5 straights ( one semi-vintage), I have 2 that are just less natural to hold and balance to strop. The scales and tang are somewhat " out of line", not to the eye, but to the hand, and I have to concentrate harder to keep them properly aligned when stropping.

Thanks Glen for the insight...I thought it was just my newness!

Harold

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Haroldg48

Great observation! Granted, im a relative newb, but of 5 straights ( one semi-vintage), I have 2 that are just less natural to hold and balance to strop. The scales and tang are somewhat " out of line", not to the eye, but to the hand, and I have to concentrate harder to keep them properly aligned when stropping.

Thanks Glen for the insight...I thought it was just my newness!

Harold

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One of the most Important aspects of stropping is, IMO, blade tension,That blade has to be tight in the scales (to a point)for me the tighter the better.A loose Floppy blade will Kill stropping every time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

One of the most Important aspects of stropping is, IMO, blade tension,That blade has to be tight in the scales (to a point)for me the tighter the better.A loose Floppy blade will Kill stropping every time.

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Very true, and that has to do with how the scales are made and also the wedge. The scales have to be flexible enough to allow for optimal tightness on the pivot pin, but also the wedge has to be the right angle and thickness to help the tension.

Nothing like flipping a razor on the return part of the lap and all of a sudden it feels like it is coming out of your hand. Real exciting when bare footed :<0) I have to admit that some of my first pivot pins were sooo tight I had to lube them twice a day :<0)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Very true, and that has to do with how the scales are made and also the wedge. The scales have to be flexible enough to allow for optimal tightness on the pivot pin, but also the wedge has to be the right angle and thickness to help the tension.

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Absolutly,is more to making scales than meets the eye,are lots of perameters envolved,not just pinning two pces of wood together.

And just for the sake of guys new to stropping ........ when I am stropping, I've got the bottom of the tang under the tip of the thumb pad, and the top of the tang on the tip of my forefinger pad.

IOW, the flat of the the tips of the thumb and forefinger. My middle, ring and little fingers are just barely touching the scales behind the tang/pivot area, cradling the scales and assisting the thumb and forefinger in keeping everything in line and together.

Same when I am honing. I found that flipping the razor is more efficient, for me anyhow, when I hold the tang top and bottom rather than on the sides. I also do not bend my wrist, all of the flip is done betwixt the fingertips. YMMV.

Great subject Glen!
First time I noticed this was during a clinic we were sponsoring, a gentleman brought a practice
(imitation) razor. He kept loosing his grip trying to learn to strop. When I tried with the razor I felt the problem, it wouldn't turn in my hand naturally. Took me a few minutes to figure out why.

Funny seeing this as I just did a dry fit with a razor that has a thumb notch and between the scales and the thumb notch it is throwing off the stropping action. I am going to have to tweak the scales some. This is why I always do a dry fit before I do any final sanding and finishing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

Nothing like flipping a razor on the return part of the lap and all of a sudden it feels like it is coming out of your hand. Real exciting when bare footed :<0) I have to admit that some of my first pivot pins were sooo tight I had to lube them twice a day :<0)

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this actually got me to laugh coffee out my nose.

side note my one bad cut with a straight was my very first shave with my shavette. I was overly cautious and scared and fumbled the razor. let's just say I almost gave myself a home surgery appendectomy.

[emoji40]

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

...Makes flipping the razor awkward in my stumpy hands.

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That's always going to be a problem, Oz:

Attachment 170578

sigh,

Regards,
Neil

Ain't no thang Neil. :)