Anyone else notice that all of Mastro Livi's belts and wheels turn the opposite direction from what I think of as normal? Anyone else use your abrasives that way. I have one belt that I use that way to set an initial bevel after heat treating.
Printable View
Anyone else notice that all of Mastro Livi's belts and wheels turn the opposite direction from what I think of as normal? Anyone else use your abrasives that way. I have one belt that I use that way to set an initial bevel after heat treating.
I watched the vid of him making that monster, but I didn't catch what you're asking about.
My belt grinder throws sparks at my feet. When I get my DC motor running and rigged, I'll be able to throw sparks in the air too as it will be reversible.
All of his abrasives turn the opposite way. I noticed this in other video's of his also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wullie
Yep, he grinds with the edge up and sparks flying away from him. If his blade snagged, it wouldn't get thrown at him.
Never ground a razor. Made a lot of knives and I always ground with the edge up until I got to the point it was about sharp enough to start cutting the belt. Always found it easier to keep the sides even if I was watching the edge centerline.
I'm also interested in those belts he used for final polish. Looks like they had some kind of compound on them.
I haven't bought a belt since '87 so I hope there has been some improvement in what's available.
come on guys, give me a link
I sometimes grind edge up as well, but still keep the belt running towards my feet. Contrary to what you might think, the razor never snags. Sometimes it is easier to grind this way. I used to grind with the belt running away from me, like Mastro Livi apparently does. This works just as well, but the problem I had with that was that the grit flies all over the workshop really bad. With the belt running towards me, most of the grit flies in the waterbucket just underneath. Given the amount of dirt that accumulates there, the other way of grinding literally spreads pounds of metal dust all over the place.
Only that you brought this up and I have watched many of his video's and thinking about it logically it does make more sense to me as you can see the edge and this is always a good idea in my minds eye.
Most of his grinding is on water cooled wheels so I guess this takes a lot of dust with it. I also noted that his grinders are hooded which will contain most airborne stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5qRup0xkyoQuote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
I use "reversed" motors on my grinders/polishers with hoods as well. With water wheels it keeps you from getting soaked. It is also easier on your neck because you are not constantly staring down you are mostly just staring forward. For the dry polishers I have a vacuum system to suck the dust out of the hood.
As for snags, even on the "reversed" ones, if it snags it bounces off of the hood and then comes right back at you. Been there, done that, have the scars to prove it.
There's two kinds; them that have and them that will. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by criswilson10
Been there too. Didn't get a T-shirt.
I've got some marks that won't buff out as well.
This is, essentially, the German method of grinding, which was also adopted in most American cutleries from the 1880's on.
The Sheffield style has the same belt direction, but the operator sits on what's called a horsing, which is basically a saddle over the water trough that the stone wheel sits partially in.
The French cutlers were much more varied from region to region, using both the Sheffield and German styles (IE, sitting versus standing), but also had a third mode where the operator laid down with the grinding wheel at a slightly lower level below the face, and then had dogs that were trained to lay on the grinder's legs 'for warmth and leverage'. The warmth part I can figure out, the leverage part on the other hand, is a mystery to me. They were not large dogs.
All health & Safety experts please look away now.;)
http://youtu.be/p63sYVCLVUk
Really the scariest thing there is the lack of a mask / respirator.Quote:
Originally Posted by celticcrusader
Interesting. In the video just posted, all of the wheels are turning down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmonster
Whatever works.
I grind edge up with the belt running towards me and buff edge down with the wheel running towards me.
'Brian the grinder' who is the only full time grinder still working in Sheffield is old school so he grinds edge up with the wheel turning away from him. He's not grinding razors though.
This. When I am in my workshop doing grinding or buffing, I wear a rubber respirator with 2 of those round replaceable filters.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScienceGuy
After a day of even mild grinding causing not much visible airborne dust, those things are black.
I have noticed many old timers refuse to wear masks and younger people who do often receive scorn from old people.
Especially in construction. I was told by the wife of a local supplier of masonry stuff (sand, mortar, etc) that her husband married into the firm, and was made fun of because he wore gloves when working with cement.
Old people can be excellent craftsmen, but don't look to them for health and safety tips.
Btw, the fact that he is sitting in between the wheels and pulleys transferring a lot of power is extremely scary as well. If something gets caught, you lose an arm or a leg before you know what happened.
That early scene kind of caught my breath too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
All of the early grinding centres, whether in Germany, England or France, made use of the wheel running away from the grinder.
The wheel sat in a trough ('trow') that was lead-lined and contained water that covered the lower half of the wheel. For dry grinding, the water was let out. A board at the back of the wheel caught some of the debris, and the wheel was set in wooden stanchions surrounded by a rough wooden housing (or hosing) on which boards were placed for the operator to sit on - he would have a particularly wet ass if this was not so.
Attachment 184630
Attachment 184631
Attachment 184632
You can clearly see by the sparks which way the wheel is running.
Some pics show how leverage was added - by using a scrap piece of wood to press the steel to the stone. Some even stood over the wheel.
France, Particularly Thiers, seems to have become associated with grinding while laying down, but the practice was carried out in some regions of Sheffield and Solingen, though it did not persist as long as it did in France.
Attachment 184633
The above is a pic taken in Thiers around 1928, though the practice persisted longer than this. Obviously, the dogs did not add any leverage - the grinder would have to have half his body unsupported for this to come into play. They are there for heat - the bottom of thos boards got cold while splashed with water all day in winter!
Attachment 184634
Attachment 184635
The last two drawings are french, and from an earlier period, and show that not all french grinders lay down while working!
BTW the man with the official title of The Last Razor Grinder in Sheffield was Bill Hukin, who worked at John & William Raggs in Sheffield. He died at the age of 89 in 1999. The man with the official title of Sheffield's Last Jobbing Grinder is Brian Alcock, who is 71 I believe. He holds the title of the last full-time employed grinder, though he is not a razor grinder.
Regards,
Neil
Great clip. Definitely pre dates whmis and msds's but love to watch the equipment run.
Would be awesome to try your hand at some of those old wheels and belts..
Before the days of guarding and HMIs when things were simpler. Not safer, but definitely simpler..
Yep, that's the guy Neil. Here's a recent pic of Brian. The lady with him is the very talented knife, scissor and corset maker Grace Horn.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5611/...57bc623f_z.jpg
I don't think you would enjoy it as much as you think, Mike! Those old grinding wheels were rough-hewn sandstone, normally at least 4 feet in diameter. They were taken in at the back of the mill, and the grinder had to drill a hole in the middle and mount then on a stub axle.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeB52
Of course, they would not revolve evenly until dressed, so they were run dry and a length of steel was used that pressed into them, first knocking all the high spots off, then gradually forming them into the round. This would take over 30mins, all dry, and the whole mill would be filled with dust. Usually this was undertaken on a sunday so that only the grinders got the best of the dust conditions, and silicosis/grinders lung which invariably followed.
This process was repeated once a week to keep the wheel running true. During the course of dressing it was not unusual to reveal hidden faults and have the wheel fly apart, braining you in the process. but, hey - this could happen at any time - everyone loves surprises, don't they? :)
The belts powering the wheels hung from the ceiling, and at one time they seemed to loop around everywhere, just inviting you to trip, fall on one, and get well and truly mangled (they motive power was often water, and it takes a while to disengage the shaft from the input drive...
Regards,
Neil
Thanks Neil,
In the picture where the grinders are lying down the sparks are showing the wheels turning towards the grinder. Not trying to contradict or make a point, it's just interesting to see all of the different ways this has been done over the years.
I got the impression from the German video that the filming was relatively new in a very old factory. The use of line shafts dates the factory
Yes Mike, Grace was the woman who featured on a lot of videos about walking and talking a knife, pinning, etc. She seems very capable!
Regards,
Neil
Yes, the Thiers pic clearly shows the sparks running in the opposite direction - I used it to show the technique as you can see from the posting, not the direction of the wheel, but as far as wheel direction goes we are talking about 1928 here rather than the 1870s, 1880s. so a much later period than I referred to.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7
Don't know anything about the old german factory you referred to - must have been in someone elses posting...
Regards,
Neil
Again, not razors but here's a video my friend made recently at Portland works which shows some 'old fashioned' grinding. Truly awesome!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_L9j8PHeBM&feature=youtu.be&list=UUmXvfWl oNWKmiNviWDHNdyQ
It's Andrew Cole throwing the sparks by the way :)
Here is a puzzle for you. My grinder spins with the top of the wheel turning towards me. The sparks fly the other way :<0)
I hope you are joking, but just in case you are not...Quote:
Originally Posted by 10Pups
Your angle is too steep. The sparks are bouncing off the metal you are grinding, bouncing backwards, and the grinder is getting ready to snatch that piece of metal out of your hands and throw it at you.
I believe most of our knife grinders grind with a rotation that sends the sparks downwards into a bucket with water in it. It's not going to throw the metal at us, just at the floor or bucket. I do have a leather apron that I wear for multiple reasons...Quote:
Originally Posted by criswilson10
Attachment 185595
