New horn scales.... the process.

I made a deal with Harry or kd5tmu as you may know him for a custom pen in exchange for a razor that has his name on it.

I decided along the way that I wanted to try to do something really nice for the scales and since I had some bison laying about it was a likely cantidate.

He had also said that his razors are all white. Now we want to give the black razors a chance too don't we?

Somewhere I have pics of flattening the horn but we can deal with that another day.

I started with a whole horn, what you see is a half that has been pressed flat.
I'll deal with working with whole horn another day.
Part of the reason I am listing this is to make sure people can deal with horn scale blanks. I sent some of this to Joe C and he said e had trouble, so I wanted to check it out.

1) grind flat.... it's really thick stuff !!!
2) mark out section that looks flaw free
3 cut out
4) sand major grooves left by coarse paper out
5) polish to look for flaws ie. major grain, chuncks missing
6) make template
7) trace it out

Tomorrow, cutting out and shaping scales.
Maybe even some pinning !!!:tu

Those will look great. This place seems to be full of talent lol

Well, here it is. It's not quite perfect but after all it is my first pinning.

Made my own pins too !!
And wedge and scales. !!

Excellent job!!

I have one cow horn I would like to make scales out of. I was thinking of boiling it for an hour or so, and press between two slabs of wood to flatten it.

How did you flatten yours??


Nenad

The scales look great. Shaun uses a super secret flattening method that he divulged in the Chat a few weeks ago. It's so top secret I can't tell you, but if he wants to, he can.

Keep up the good scale work!

ok, first get a slab of concrete, a driveway, sideway, or maybe patio will work
next you need a piece of 2x6x2, a board that is at least as wide as a slice of bread, a couple feet long and won't flex or bend AT ALL, you'll see why

I have been boiling but have recently fond out it may be possible to skip this step

I''l get back to you on that this week, have more to try it with

boil if you like but the main important step is to bake horn at around 300 degrees F, do your own conversion but watch you don't go too hot or it will burn

I'm wetting it with neats foot oil to soften/condition/aid in heat absorbtion

as the horn is baking I take it out about every 6 mins and set it on a hard surface, curve down, and lean about half my weight on it

I'm looking for it to flatten at least half way, you'll start to see a major change and will know when

I bake it about 5 more mins after I see a big change in hardness YMMV take it out and check

if you burn it the whole house will reek of burned ass
for at least 2 days so be careful

THE NEXT STEPS MUST BE DONE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE
COLD HORN WILL NOT BEND AND STAY FLAT, IT WILL COME BACK TO ROUND

next take your hot horn outside and place on concrete slab CURVE UP

place board on horn like you were making a ramp and the horn is the elevator

drive front tire of car up "ramp" to flatten horn

if the horn is not yet perfectly flat, as soon as you can so it is still hot, turn wheels back and forth to sort of grind it flat :D

shut off car

wait at least an hour, 3 is better, more than 3 doesn't seem to matter

sand, cut shape, pin and enjoy !! :y

if you have a hydraulic press
then obviously that is a better solution than a car

If not then the car is the easiest way I know to get at least 1000 pounds to flatten a horn.
I have been tring to put my press back together so I can do this on a semi production basis and offer half horn blanks and save people the trouble.

Thanx for the detailed explanation of the process....

I know that the best method is to bake the horn, but I have read somewhere that boiling also works, so I will try and replicate the results with a pot of boiling water, two slabs of wood, and a C clamp :)

Thank you again,

Nenad

do what you want

if the horn is round now it will go back to round with just boiling and pressing


I sent some to Joe C and he said the same thing but still ended up baking it.

Just come back and post a "you told me so" as a tribute to my superior hornworking prowess !!! ;)

Good luck.

BTW I'm sure in a few more weeks I will be able to post better info. Like exact temp to be heated to, whether or not a "perm" will work to do it chemically, info on dying the horn(I want RED) and anything else I learn along the way.

As I have said, I will be making cow horn and bison horn blanks available round end of the month, maybe middle of next.
They will be flat and sanded to a reasonable thickness already though !! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

Just come back and post a "you told me so" as a tribute to my superior hornworking prowess !!! ;)

:D

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Now Im sure there is a dirty, smutty and derogatory comment ther somewhere but it wont come from me...

Has steaming been considered? Or like I guessed it simply doesnt get hot enough with a home steaming rig? (300DegF = 149DegC)

A microwave may also be possible for heating, but again you have the issue of temperature control and the uneven nature of the heating in a microwave.

IF you have a LARGE ammount of suitable oil a heated oil bath may be possible? (NOTE: MUST CHECK IGNITION TEMP BEFORE ATTEMPTING THIS!) Oh and use a sugar thermometer to check the temp...

The "you told me so" was my little commentary on people wanting to disregard the methods I was recommending to them based on my experiences working with horn in favor of methods that I had already stated would produce mixed results at best.
I didn't start this thread to brag about what I can do or so people could say WOW COOL WORK.
I wrote it as a resource for anyone who wants to get some horn to try out.
I'm trying to save people the trouble and the wasted material/time/energy.

If someone wants to waste time and energy that is their prerogative.:shrug:
It's mine to poke fun at them.:D


I will be working with some translucent cow horn in the next couple of weeks and will take lots more pics from beginning till end.

BACK TO IDEAS

I have considered the oil and plan to try it sometime very soon.
I have lots of scraps to try it with.

I'm not sure what sort of oil I will use, suppose I will start with corn and if it works ok I might try neats foot or lard.

As far as temp control, any of your various $25 counter top fryers should do just fine, even without a thermometer.

The microwave is a disaster.
Horn comes out burnt, popped, warped due to uneven heating and generally is useless.

I say "popped" because if the horn has ANY moisture content it will pop like popcorn.

To remove moisture content I suppose you could put it in the oven and bake it.............hey :thinking:..... wait a minute!! :roflmao

I'm also considering a perm, like for hair, to soften the horn chemically.
I tried soaking in ammonia to soften and it did make it soft but when it dried it returned to original shape.


MORE TO COME !!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

The "you told me so" was my little commentary on people wanting to disregard the methods I was recommending to them based on my experiences

I'm trying to save people the trouble and the wasted material/time/energy.

If someone wants to waste time and energy that is their prerogative.:shrug:
It's mine to poke fun at them.:D

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Disregarding? Wasting time and energy? Did I said something to hurt your feelings???

What, you think you have discovered a way to put carbon in the steel without heating it? This "super duper secret horn flattening method" is as old as the human desire to flatten horn, and it's widely known around the world...

btw, as a data point for your experiments, horn's melting point is at 350F, and nowadays, horn is heated in oil bath and flattened in a press.

Nenad

Blah, blah, blah, enough bickering.

What I want to see is the 'pressed horn' with sayings or images pressed into the side....

THEN we can replace or make some nice classic looking horn scales!

Come on guys, hop to it!

:D

C utz

Thanks for the information GW! there are a few of us around here who don't know this information and appreciate the chance to learn something new!!

Mark Avery

just for the record, GW has NEVER claimed this as his 'secret' method - that was just something that KD5 threw in there to add a little humor because GW was explaining the method in the chatroom, and not a whole lot of people were there to hear it - we were all fascinated to hear GW explain his method (and, just for the record, I doubt they've been using the front wheel of their car for the last hundred years or so! - good one, Shaun!:tu )

-whatever

-Lou

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C utz

Blah, blah, blah, enough bickering.

What I want to see is the 'pressed horn' with sayings or images pressed into the side....

THEN we can replace or make some nice classic looking horn scales!

Come on guys, hop to it!

:D

C utz

---

In the chatroom chat, I asked Shaun specifically about that (IIRC, I asked about putting a vintage dime on the horn prior to pressing) He seemed a little skeptical - thought the design on the dime was too subtle -but, maybe if you had a big, bold, high-relief name/design/whatever, something like that might work.

G-dub? ....any thoughts?

-whatever

-Lou

There's a train that goes by my work a couple times per day and is great at crushing pennies. You think it could flatten a horn?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scarface

In the chatroom chat, I asked Shaun specifically about that (IIRC, I asked about putting a vintage dime on the horn prior to pressing) He seemed a little skeptical - thought the design on the dime was too subtle -but, maybe if you had a big, bold, high-relief name/design/whatever, something like that might work.

G-dub? ....any thoughts?

-whatever

-Lou

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:thinking:
Anyone know how to make a dye-stamp??
The dime idea is a good one, but I can see how it might be too shallow. There has to be something...I think I saw some metal letter stamps at the craftshop. I'm not sure if that would bear the weight of a car though....who knows :shrug:

Sometimes there are old razor 'printing blocks' on eBay....I wonder if one of those, or something similar could be used as a stamp. It just needs to be strong enough to press into the horn (and then there is that confounded 'car weight' issue I'm going to ignore).

Perhaps a 'reverse-etched' piece of metal?

It'd be nice to see 'pressed horn scales' make a showing again.....

C utz

...............

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scarface

just for the record, GW has NEVER claimed this as his 'secret' method - that was just something that KD5 threw in there to add a little humor because GW was explaining the method in the chatroom, and not a whole lot of people were there to hear it - we were all fascinated to hear GW explain his method (and, just for the record, I doubt they've been using the front wheel of their car for the last hundred years or so! - good one, Shaun!:tu )

-whatever

-Lou

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Yeah man, take a chill pill. Harry was just goofing around about the "secret" thing.:rolleyes:

I just suggested the car because it's the heaviest thing that nearly everyone has. Not everyone had TAD you know. (tool acquisition disorder)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfly

Disregarding? Wasting time and energy? Did I said something to hurt your feelings???

What, you think you have discovered a way to put carbon in the steel without heating it? This "super duper secret horn flattening method" is as old as the human desire to flatten horn, and it's widely known around the world...

btw, as a data point for your experiments, horn's melting point is at 350F, and nowadays, horn is heated in oil bath and flattened in a press.

Nenad

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Nope, not at all. That was directed at the Aussie. Like I said, if someone wants to waste time then be my guest.

Maybe you think it isn't wasting time? I talked to Joe C about this topic and he said he would try working with some. He said he had been boiling to flatten and didn't see a need for baking. I boiled some and pressed it flat and sent it off.
Next day I came home and the piece I had kept was nice and round and clean(from boiling).
I came to find out that he was working with commercially produced, very nearly flat horn from http://www.masecraftsupply.com/
Big difference between taking a 1/8 curve and a 3 inch curve out!!
I had to flatten more, thru baking, and send it to him. That's what I call a waste of time.

Thanks for the info on melting point and about the oil, like I said, I have been wondering for a while about that.

One major issue with pressing a dime or any other coin into a bit of horn is the reversal of the image/text.
Unless you have a dime with a reversed image, and I doubt you want to use that for horn, it's no good.

I have individual letter/number stamps but I'm not sure how pretty it would turn out and would be limited on size selections.
Perhaps heating the stamps and using a stencil would work out well.



I have used a bench vise and a c-clamp with varied results. the biggest problems are 1) getting and even distribution of force 2) being able to bring the clamping force to bear before the horn cools too much.

More to come !


(like anyone cares)


if I didn't have bad luck....:rolleyes:

G.W.

I tried hot oil to heat horn this week and it seems to be a drastic improvement over the oven.

I used corn oil heated to between 310 and 325 F.

I was using cow horn that was white and tan.

Temps over 315 seemed to cause fairly rapid browning of the white sections but the darker color didn't seem to change at all.

The particular horn I was using already had the bark removed and was quite thin. It is very possible that 315-320 would be an ideal range for thicker horn such as the bison I had been working with.

Imperfections like blood spots seemed unaffected by the heat.

I attempted to bleach the horn with 20% Hydrogen Peroxide to no avail.
I also used a mix of 20% H2O2 and Sodium Hydroxide but like the first attempt all I got was a blistered piece of horn. :shrug:

I will continue to seek a way to make blonde horn. Suggestions welcome.

Since the only solid color I can get so far is black I will be trying to dye a few pieces with hair color like can be purchased in the drug store.

My first colors will be grey and sort of strawberry blonde.

If this works well i may add others.

I will also be experimenting with aniline dyes or something else bright that should allow the horn to remain translucent.
If there is another sort of dye that would be better suited and is available in bright colors like red and yellow please let me know.

These are a couple of pics of what I did the other day. None of the semi finished scales yet.

I have an old razor that has a set of red-horn scales....
They look as though they were 'blond' scales that were dyed. Unfortunately, that is all I can tell you about them! BUT, it can be done.....

If you want I can post a picture of the razor.
OR, you can wait until I post it in the 'for sale' area or on eBay ;)
(I've been meaning to do that, but like so many other things, something came up)

C utz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

I will continue to seek a way to make blonde horn. Suggestions welcome.

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Start with a blonde cow? :roflmao

/sarcasm

J.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

Nope, not at all. That was directed at the Aussie. Like I said, if someone wants to waste time then be my guest.


G.W.

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ahhh yeah... thanks for that...

I guess I'll keep my suggestions to my self from now on.

Like how my grandfather used to bleach horn to make cutlery handles.

Good luck.