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Cleaning up a M. George & Sons. I removed the broken scale and the pivot hole is huge and tapered from both sides. It appears the used a punch to knock a hole in it while red hot from both sides.
Is this common on old razors or is it just a Sheffield thing? My Wade and butcher is the same way.
Guess I'll break out the shim tubing.
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Now that you mention it, I just checked a HH Taylor near wedge I'm working and it looks like that. At first I thought they used the worlds wobbliest drill, but under magnification it does look punched.
In the library there is a good pic of filling the hole with epoxy then you can drill thru it - that's what I plan to do...
Yup, I think it is pretty common with old Sheffie razors. Lots of threads on how to fix that if you want to.
Bob
Yes it is common I have a set of GW&S IXL's that are like that. The shim tubing will work but I tend to use Jb weld as it's an epoxy that's waterproof an is silverish.
Unless you have the blade walking forward and hitting the wedge, there is no need to bush the hole, IMO.
I also do not use thrust washers with old Sheffields in horn. To me, they work best as they were made.
Just me!
I fully concur!Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
Yes, pivot holes were hot punched on Sheffield razors & scales were also long enough to allow for some creep.
Pretty 'agricultural' huh ?
That was how it was done back then. :D
Close enough for government work it was.
Bob
Germans have drills? ;) Yes not such a big deal. Seems dodgy in this day and we shoot for perfect in our gems. My Wade & Butcher hit the scales. They were warped a bit and made the blade pull to one side.
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OK I'm all ears ready to receive this instruction. My HH Taylor is definitely old Sheff with good black horn currently soaking in Neets F Oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
When I unpinned it I noticed no washer between tang and horn. So it is recommended to repin it like that with no inside washer ???
Most of my restores have been done without washers. When I took them out of the d scales they didn't have any in so I never replaced them. I have used them on blades that just gave me fits for some reason and wouldn't quite center for a reason that I couldn't figure out. But that is rare.
Simple old mechanics when using ever changing natural materials. The big old tapered tangs would wedge into and spread the scales on the way in on both sides and align the scales to the blade. The sloppy hole allowed for some movement, keeping things from binding-up.
If you bush the pin-hole and add spacers, none of this works anymore as the tang no longer spreads the scales and the blade cannot 'float' in them. Just a simple hinge at that point. Also friction loss by adding the spacers, no more tight pivot.
I have done it, had problems. Undo it, problems gone!
YMMV
Well now you tell me...... :banghead:Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
Now that you mention it, I looked in my to do box and the W&B, Double Duck and M. George & Son all have loose pivots and tapered tangs. Hmmm. They seem rediculously large. The DD had spacers.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
May give your idea a go.
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Those old guys were doing it longer than you, and there ain't no reason to reinvent the wheel. The mechanics of the steaight were for a reason as Tom has already pointed out. Tc
Indeed, an old Wade and Butcher and M George and Son have likely dry horn scales and lots of wear at the pivot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayglen
No doubt they should be loose. The scales on a (much newer) Double-duck are likely shrunken causing the same phenomena.
I was in reference to old razors as they were made, or as being repinned in the old fashion.
Dang I was gonna be funny and put up for sale "Extra Ezpecial" W+B tang hole filler pellets, made for just 5 days in June 1888, Pssss hehehahaha
Yep, pound em in and drill, Shazam!! 0nly 19.95 Each!! Only 51,0000000000000 left at this price.
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
Those people made hundreds of thousands of razor in their own lifetime, and were taught by a long line of people who did the same. It they did things a certain way, there's probably a good reason for it. If you don't know the reason, 'fixing' their work is not the best of ideas.
While I don't hot punch my holes, I do leave some slop to allow things to move and flex without forcing things.
Indeed, there is a whole thread here somewhere on the mechanics of scales with regard to tang taper and wedges -- a detail I had never noticed until I read the thread then looked at quality razors closely as they were opened and closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
As others have said, it was a method perfected by real craftsmen from long ago based on a lot of experience, and my approach, based on my wise father's personal version of a familiar saying was, "If it isn't broken, don't fix it. If you try you are likely to f--k it up".
I ignored him once or twice and screwed things up out of curiosity. When he found out he just stared at me with the look that says, "you poor dumb xxxx -- you'll learn". I have learned and I leave things that work alone, most of the time.:shrug:
I agree no bushing is generally needed. I do frequently find Sheffield razors in horn with thrust washers. I just finished a Wosti today that had them and I reinstalled them. It was a pre-1890 razor. I do not find them on the early razors but I'll take a WAG and say they are common enough in 1870 and later blades. I think they make the blade pivoting smoother and keeps the scales from rubbing on the tang when closed. I install them as routine unless someone specifies not too. I think like in manufacturing today companies are always trying to lean out their processes. If they had not served a positive function the makers would have simply left them out and saved a penny a razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
I have always felt thrust washers keep the scales cleaner, so that the pivot is on the inside of the washer and the blade, not the scale.
I put them in also. I use a smashed # 0 microfasteners, brass washer or originals. Just smack them with a flat hammer on the anvil, a couple hits. It gets them pretty flat, close to the thickness and diameter of the originals.
You might have to touch up the hole with a 1/16th in bit in a pin vise, but usually not, the hole doesn’t shrink, like you would think…
I too used to bush them, peened brass rod & drill or loose tubing, but have not for some time and really don’t feel the need. I do peen a bit tight.
Each to his own, or YMMV, I always say! I have not seen any old horn-scaled Sheffields which were originally equipped with brass spacers (or thrust washers) personally, but have done the deed more than a few times.
This old Greaves, for example. I bushed the pin-hole and added thin brass spacers. After a while, it has become too loose to use and never closed well, had to guide the heavy blade in.
Attachment 238315Attachment 238316Attachment 238318
After this morning's shave, I had to do something, so I unpinned the top and rid it of the spacers, filing out the aluminum pop-rivet bushing, reassembled it and peened all together with a new pin.
It can be seen that the tang is firmly against the horn and the blade closes center, in spite of a slight warp to the spine AND the scales. Nice and tight, stands-up proud.
Attachment 238321Attachment 238322Attachment 238323Attachment 238324Attachment 238325
These pics are to demonstrate what I posted above.
Some have different experiences, but it works a treat (for me) most of the time with old Sheffields.
Back like it came!
There are certainly times where spacers and bushings are needed in them, I agree.
However, this one just did not work with them.
Attachment 238651Attachment 238652Attachment 238653Attachment 238654
Some pics of the hole - I tried to get some views that show how it looks punched. Besides not being round, you can see a little ridge that looks like it was double strike maybe.
Also note the crack to the left of the tang writing- I wonder if that happened when the letters were stamped- maybe the steel was cooling.
This is for my grandson Taylor just turned 9 - I showed him the name so he is happy about it. I have a few years to finish.
Blade etching was faint under the rust I could make out 'india steel' and on the tang 'cast steel' its near wedge 6/8 so I guess 1840 to 1860.
