what do you do to get a new razor "shave ready?"

I snagged up a new Dovo Best Quality 6/8 razor yesterday and am wondering what you guys do to get your razors "shave ready." I know how to strop and hone correctly, so that isn't part of the question. It seems that with all the reviews on new razors, you read that they aren't "shave ready." How so?

I've restored probably 3-4 razors in the past couple months and come to the realization that they're crap lol. They were just too damaged and didn't have enough meat on them to correct. I did get one to shave ready condition but it was slightly uneven and it made all the difference in the world. My process of restoring was to bread knife on the side of the stone to even, then set the bevel with a 220, then to 1000, then to 4000, 8000, and finally a 12,000 Naniwa. I'd then strop with Flitz and then plain leather. To test I would run the razor across my arm, about a 1/4in above the skin and watch for it to cut the hairs in half. Then I would shave with it.

What do you do to determine if a razor is ready to shave with? What is your process for readying a new razor?

Hmmm. Where to start. I am a little stuck on your screen name. They are not knives so the process is different and the same. The part that is the same is that you need to develop a perfect apex and then polish it and refine it. The how the blade sits on the hone is completely different. I would almost never use a 220 with a razor. Skip straight past the 220. Tape the spine so you can keep it from damage until you get you technique figured out and then decide tape or no tape. Lapping hones is pretty important with straight razors. A loupe is your best friend. There are a few threads on what you are looking at when honing. The establishment of a perfect apex for the entire length of the cutting edge is the cornerstone of shave ready. You should be able to get a mediocre shave from a 1K honing with a properly developed bevel. Then it is the process of refining it. I really got a lot from gssixgun's videos. One on one is best when learning.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

Hmmm. Where to start. I am a little stuck on your screen name. They are not knives so the process is different and the same. The part that is the same is that you need to develop a perfect apex and then polish it and refine it. The how the blade sits on the hone is completely different. I would almost never use a 220 with a razor. Skip straight past the 220. Tape the spine so you can keep it from damage until you get you technique figured out and then decide tape or no tape. Lapping hones is pretty important with straight razors. A loupe is your best friend. There are a few threads on what you are looking at when honing. The establishment of a perfect apex for the entire length of the cutting edge is the cornerstone of shave ready. You should be able to get a mediocre shave from a 1K honing with a properly developed bevel. Then it is the process of refining it. I really got a lot from gssixgun's videos. One on one is best when learning.

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Thanks a bunch for taking the time to respond. Oh ya, I know razors are a totally different animal than knives. I own a jewelrs loop and used it a good amount while restoring the run down razors I got off of craigslist. They are VERY handy.

What I'm curious of is whether you guys think new razors need honing or if a good stropping will do? Obviously the answer wold depend on one's ability to asses the condition of the edge. As long as the entire edge is 100% are there any final steps you take to get it right where you want it? Perhaps a stropping or maybe even a few passes on a 12,000 grit?

I (grimace) shave with it first if it is new production. Usually just start a shave, give up and finish with a different razor.

I want to know what people consider shave ready. Most are not. Then I hone them.

I have only bought 1 brand new razor. For me the test for shave ready was a good stropping followed by a test shave. Found the edge to be shave able but not really up to my liking. Then it was off to the hones.

It shaves as well as the vintage ones I have so I have not bothered buying any more new ones.

Bob

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Originally Posted by JGordonKnives

What I'm curious of is whether you guys think new razors need honing or if a good stropping will do? o get it right where you want it?

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I've had some that were 'shave ready' but more that weren't. Some that were shave ready, but not up to the standard that I'm used to. So it is a mixed bag. Nothing to do but try them and see where they are. Some needed a bevel set through finishing, others a touch up on a finisher, and still others a good stropping.

I guess when I started out, I got a bunch of razors that the sellers claimed were shave ready. They cut the hair on my arm, but none were comfortable. Such is life. So I hone everything that comes through my door as a matter of course now. No need to waste a good shave. I always reset the bevel.

Testing ... well yeah, I got a loop. I'll use it if I remember. Sure I test it on my arm. A single hair or two anymore. I used to practically have bare arms at the beginning lol! But I'm a little more confident than I used to be, and in all seriousness, I test it on my face. I can tell if it needs to go back onto a stone or the strop in a stroke. And if it does ... cool, I got lots of blades ready to go.

I don't know when I got so complacent about it all. I don't know if it was when I got ok at honing, ok at stropping, or if it was when I got enough razors that I would always have a blade ready if one wasn't working out.

Of the new razors I have bought, and that is a short list, two were honed by the seller and the other two I honed, and have honed a few new razors for others. It is part of the business model of manufactures that I do not understand. Why on earth would you deliver a product that requires to be serviced before it can be used. I did not have to put tires on my truck when I got it and I did not have to install all the software in my new computer.

It is actually really simple to see why

If you watch any of the Production razor vids like this Dovo one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ACJrAI3SxM

You are going to see them set the Pre-bevel on a Disc Platen Grinder while lifting the spine off the wheel at about the 4min mark.. then after creating that rough bevel she uses what looks to be a Coticule to smooth that rough bevel..

IF

Big if, the second stone actually hits all along the edge and removes the complete rough pre-bevel you will get a decent edge to shave with, (unlikely) if not then you have remnants of the rough Platen ground edge (often) touching your face :(

This is why every now and then one hits but mostly No they are not shave ready, you have to get rid of the entire rough pre-bevel and get a nice smooth shave ready edge instead..

Pretty much every production razor vid you watch regardless of brand, shows almost the exact same routine.. Now with so many of us SR guys having USB Microscopes the "Non-Shave Readiness" of Factory edges has become quite clear (pun intended)


Edit:

Honestly very few Factory Production Cutting tools from Hunting Knives to Lathe Gouges and Planer Blades have what an experienced honer/workman consider to be a "Work Ready" edge.. I know the first thing I do when I buy a new Factory edged tool is test it, then tweak it to my standards, SR's are no different

You might get lucky and get one that, with a “proper” stropping, but… How long have you been stropping?

It can always be improved, much improved.

First, when the razor was honed at the factory, it was honed with the spine off the stone, held by the honer’s hand. How steady was the hand?

So at the least you will have to correct the bevel angle.

If you hone your own, you must first set the bevel on a 1k or there about stone and not move up in grit until you are absolutely sure the bevel is fully set.

Which method of testing are you using to ensure the bevel is set?

And you cannot strop on Flitz and expect a smooth shave.

Why? Well, exactly is the abrasive(s) in Flitz, and what is the grit rating?

Don’t know what your “Honing” experience is, but you might start by reading the first 3 threads in the honing forum and pick up at least a 60X lighted loupe.

Some razors would only need a stropping but I'd rather shave on my edge, not someone else's. So I always reset the bevel on a new razor. You don't know if tape has been used, if the previous hone was lapped etc etc.

Dull the edge, go to the 1k, bring it back etc. That's the only way to be sure the bevel is set.

I went ahead and just stropped my new Dovo on a leather(smooth/skin side) paddle with no abrasive/polish. It shaved pretty well. I guess the problem is, and probably the problem for a lot of newer straight razor shavers, is knowing the feel of how a perfectly honed razor cuts. This new one cuts better than the other straights I restored. I imagine that's partially because there was a lot more meat behind the edge on the old ones.

When setting the bevel on a new razor, do you use tape on a stone when you go to the 1000 grit stone? Is it reasonable to set a bevel with a 4000 grit stone? I watched a few of gssixgun's youtube videos as suggested on page one of this thread and he used a 5000 grit stone to reestablish a bevel(that he had purposefully dulled on the side of the stone).

If it's not a good idea to set a bevel with a 4000-5000 grit stone and you think it's better to just use a 1000 grit, do you use tape to protect the spine? I know it's kind of a controversial subject around here but I imagine there's a way to set the bevel without ruining the polish on the spine.

The first thing I do is look at the edge under a microscope to see what I'm dealing with. In my experience, most razors come with a really lousy edge that is deceptive in that it might shave but needs more than a touch up to get it right. If the edge looks more like a mountain range, I go right to a 1k to get the bevel right and then on up. If the bevel isn't a total mess, a 4K might do. But either way, I like my own edges and will want to put my own on the razor. The last Ralf Aust I got from SRD I specifically requested that it not be honed. But it came with a decent edge anyway. But I honed it myself and it's just the way I like it.

On used razors, if there is a lot of hone wear (spine is worn) you might need more layers of tape. If I can't set a bevel or it starts getting wide I add more tape to compensate for what metal has been removed. Also check every used razor for a frown, they will be nearly impossible to hone correctly until the frown has been removed.

As others have said new razors can be hit or miss depending on where you got them, most factory edges are harsh unless you get them from a source that checks and hones each one

I have only bought two new razors. Both Dovos. One Inox and one Dovos best. Both needed attention to get to my satisfaction level. Rough spots near the heel that prevented a super fine honing.

So there are sort of two different things that you are talking about. One is restoration honing where no bevel exists because of restoration work and a bevel need to be made from scratch and a lot of metal need to be removed in order to establish the entire bevel. The other the apex of the bevel has been removed and the shoulders of the bevel still exist and only the apex is being re-established. It's two different cats. You can re-establish a bevel on a 4 or 5K without too much time, but it would be a long road on restoration honing. If you look with the loupe straight down on the edge and the point of the sex is pretty much invisible you have the bevel set. Sparkle and white lines means you are not there yet. It is most often best to look before you dive into a honing job.

“If it's not a good idea to set a bevel with a 4000-5000 grit stone and you think it's better to just use a 1000 grit “

Depends, on the bevel and the edge. If there is damage and if the bevel angle is set?

You have to do what the razor needs. If you are re-setting a bevel of a new factory honed razor, you will have to remove a fair amount of steel to get the bevels flat and in the proper plane, a 1k is probably the best tool for that.

Experiences hand can re-set a bevel on a 4 or 5k stone, depending on the stone. Re-setting a bevel from a jointed edge is something that can be done in 10-15 laps, Re-setting a factory bevel is quite another thing.

Tape is not controversial… Don’t use it if you don’t want to… But as you have seen with your “Restoration” work, it is very easily to ruin a razor and render it un-shaveable, though capable hands can revive most damaged razors.

The recommendation for, new honers is to tape the bevel until you master honing, then decide if you want to continue to use tape. There is no down side to using tape, there is a big down side to not using tape, especially for a new honer and especially on, new or nice razors. Tape the spine and keep replacing fresh tape on the spine, until you have gone through the whole progression, not just the 1k.

It is not just the polish, on the spine that you will ruin, but typically, you will needlessly grind the spine, by doing too many laps and using too much pressure, thereby altering the bevel angle permanently. Did I say Needlessly?

I know you claim, (“I know how to strop and hone correctly, so that isn't part of the question.”), but based on your questions, probably not that experienced, with straight razors. Stropping can take a year or so to really get to the level, where you are consistently improving an edge and not causing damage to the edge or strop.

Posting photos of your razors and stones will help in advising you further.


Which brand of stones do you have, I know you said you have a Naniwa 12k but what are the rest of your progression, and what power of magnification are you using?

I'd go along with what RezDog has said. Most old vintage razors I have restored the edge on may have had chips, some rust on the bevel or a frown. Things like that really are best done using a 1K hone.

One a brand spanking new razor from a reputable maker that should not be necessary and may only need refining on a finishing hone, 8K or 12K for me. If they are really not too good a 3K/4k/5K might be needed. I said reputable to eliminate new razors from China and the like which could likely fall under the restore category.

I use a single layer of tape even on the one brand spanking new razor I own. With vintage razors I do the math to see what bevel angle I without tape. Some have needed more than one layer of tape to bring the bevel angle into an acceptable range. IIRC only a couple needed 2 or 3 layers of tape out of about 40.

Bob

J Gordon, you sound like me. I am am knife maker too, the tough part for us is re-learning the use of hones, and most of all making the muscle memory of butterfly soft razor honing, I had and still at times use a bit too much pressure, it will come, as I hone at least an hour every night and get better constantly.

The One thing I know for sure is if you follow what the Gent's here have laid out plain and simple, you will be able to make most razors truly shave ready and have the confidence to tackle about any restoration.

Very very good information here everyone. Again, I really appreciate it.

@Euclid440- Yes, I'm not very experienced with straight razors. I hope I didn't say anything that would suggest otherwise. I'm sure you all get knife guys who come in here and think straight razors are just REALLY sharp knives, and in turn have it all figured out. I hope I didn't come off like that.

I did however become interested in straights through knife making. I've been working on a couple kamisoris and just finished heat treatment. I set them on the back of the shelf and told myself I'd finish them down the road after I figured out straights a little better. They're a side project for personal use and there's no timeline on them. So this lead me to get my hands on some straight razors and start studying the aspects that make a good razor. Here I am.

As far as my stones and my process goes, I watched a few videos on youtube. Lynn Abrams, Lewis Razors, and a couple others. I pretty much just got my strategy from them. I have Norton stones for 220, 1000, 4000, 8000, and the Naniwa 12,000. Then I have strops. When I "restored" the beat up craigslist razors I used a bread knife technique on the side of the stone to remove any smiles/frowns. Then I set the bevel with a 1000 grit. I thought I used the 220 grit but when I double checked my stones last night and saw it was the 1000 I used. I laid the razor flat on the stone and pushed it forward. I used my thumbs on the spine of the heel and toe and my index fingers on the top of the spine similarly. when pulling it back I switched index fingers to the spine. I applied VERY light pressure. After 20 passes per side I checked the edge with the loop to make sure it was even and the small chips were gone. There were a couple I had to go back and do more on and I think one that only took 20 passes. After that I'd continue with my 20 passes and check the bevel for an even bevel and for the prior grit's scratches to be gone. Then I'd move on. Did this until 12,000.

Towards the end of each cycle of grits I'd try and lighten up to using almost no pressure. I'm not sure where I read it but it made since to me, so I did it.

I AM familiar with the physics of stropping and I do know it's easy to screw up an edge with one. A lot of times guys use too much pressure and the leather mushes down and actually abrades the edge(especially with compound in the strop). That being said I am NOT very familiar with stropping straight razors. When I did the Dovo last night hardly used any pressure and stopped on a new paddle strop I made just for straight razors. I kind of just went at it with the cheap old razors I bought and refurbished. I'm kind of trying to employ a Hippocratic oath with the new Dovo lol.

I would have posted pics of the Dovo and my stones but they're pretty much brand new(I have a different set for knives). You could just find a picture online of either of them and it would be what I have at this point.

One more question, do you all use black electrical tape for the spines of your razors when sharpening? Pretty sure that's what I've been seeing but I wanted to make sure.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post here guys. I hope that clarified my intentions a little bit. I really appreciate the help.

A couple of things. Regular electrical tape is the thing those that tape use. When you are looking at the side of the bevel it does not really show if the apex is making a 'V' it could be a 'U' and still look the same from the side. Looking almost straight down on the bevel you will see sparkles and white lines where the bevel is not complete and have a really hard time seeing the actual edge when the bevel is fully set. I followed just one teacher in the videos until I was able to repeat the lessons with some consistency. There are many roads to the perfect edge, but you can only follow one at a time. Over time you will likely find your own path.

When restoring, you may not want to remove all smiles, but you do want to remove all frowns.

Setting the bevel, is 90 percent of honing, if the bevel not is fully set you do not have an edge and flat bevels. While the bevels must be flat, they may not be even in width.

I know in knife sharpening, an even bevel is what you strive for, not nesserally with razors. You may not have that choice, as the heat treat of the thin metal will slightly warp the blade. Almost none are perfectly straight and that will produce bevels of different size.

You can grind the spine flat to compensate for the warp sometimes, but then you have an ugly spine. We compensate by using different strokes that hone parts of the bevel as opposed to the whole bevel at a time. Look in the library, Honing a razor, Strokes for Honing.

The first thing you need is magnification, at least 60X, you can get away with less, but you need to see the stria clearly, when starting out to understand what is happening at the grits. You can buy hand held 60X lighted loupes for a couple bucks on line.

I know most folks say no pressure, but not really when setting a bevel sometimes you need pressure to get the bevels to meet, or lower grit stones. Low grits and pressure are a double edge sword. They will get the bevels flat and meeting but can cause chipping at the edge, in the later grits.

Circles will also speed up the metal removal, and if you bread knifed a lot, you will have to remove some metal. Do circles in sets of 10 or 20 and keep checking the edge, a colored sharpie on the bevels will quickly show you your progress. Once they meet then do straight laps to remove all the circular stria.

If you have chipping, you can joint the edge, lightly stroke the corner of the stone and remove the very edge and straighten it. Then re-set the edge in about 10-20 laps, if your bevels are fully flat.

If your edges are not shaving well, I would bet they were not fully set on the 1k. It sounds like you are not doing nearly enough laps.

Here is a good post with excellent photos from a new honer taking a razor from bevel set to finish. His photos will show you what to look for, I think they were taken at 400X. Second Try at Honing.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

Hmmm. Where to start. I am a little stuck on your screen name. They are not knives so the process is different and the same. The part that is the same is that you need to develop a perfect apex and then polish it and refine it. The how the blade sits on the hone is completely different. I would almost never use a 220 with a razor. Skip straight past the 220. Tape the spine so you can keep it from damage until you get you technique figured out and then decide tape or no tape. Lapping hones is pretty important with straight razors. A loupe is your best friend. There are a few threads on what you are looking at when honing. The establishment of a perfect apex for the entire length of the cutting edge is the cornerstone of shave ready. You should be able to get a mediocre shave from a 1K honing with a properly developed bevel. Then it is the process of refining it. I really got a lot from gssixgun's videos. One on one is best when learning.

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I would add only one thing to what Rezdog said and that is to watch Lynn Abrams on honing start to finish. It's very informative.