Beginning Scale Maker Questions

Okay, I've cleaned up a couple of blades acquired at an antique shop and purchased a couple of others here on SRP and now I need to make some scales.

I have some "Epoxy Resin Blank" material purchased online that is sold as 1/8" thick. Some of it is within a few thousandths of 1/4" and the thickness varies. I've got a belt sander and can take care of the thickness and the inconsistency but that's where the questions come in.

Checked the scale thickness on several of my razors and most seem to be between 0.10" and 0.12", although I have one that's right at 0.08".

Nothing fancy, just flat scales with a bevel.
With epoxy resin blanks and this style of scale, what should I shoot for as far as thickness?
What grit of sandpaper should I start with to take off 1/16" plus of material?

Thanks in Advance

I've only made a few sets of scales and I'm of no help with the thickness as I work until they not only work but look right.

I don't have a picture of it but if you can imagine using carpet tape to hold two pre-cut scale blanks side by side to that they can be sanded as evenly as possible it might be of some help. I use a piece of extruded aluminum. Once you know how thick your back up piece is then as you sand you can check to see how thick your scales are. (Mine is 1/4" thick)

Also an important thing to remember is that even 120 grit on a belt sander takes a lot of sanding to get rid of so your scales will continue to lose thickness.

I'm hoping that others with a lot more experience will be joining in to help you.

It kind of depends on the flexibility of your material. Epoxy sheets, are they G-10? If it is, G-10 is crazy strong and it’s hard to get it to bend and flex properly unless it is fairly thin. The other issue is the dust is quite toxic. Use a good vacuum or dust collector with proper filtration and a quality respirator. I’ve made a few sets of scales and the thickness and the wedge are the two kind of tricky parts. The material needs to flex and move as the razor rotates. Not enough flex and it puts a lot of stress on the hinge pin and the razor will have a hard time staying tight at the pivot. It’s true with most materials. People sometimes don’t understand how the wedge and tang taper work together with the flexibility of the scales to give continual even tension at the pivot through out the full rotation. It sounds a lot more complicate than it actually is. Basically the scale need to be thin enough to flex and the taper of the wedge should match the taper of the tang with enough thickness to allow the blade to nestle into the scales at the right height.
:-)

My good friend Rez brought up the subject of the relationship of the WEDGE to the SCALES.

While I haven't asked permission to post this here, here is what a seasoned veteran of many, many custom scales has to say about how to make the wedge.

Glen, please forgive me for not asking for your blessings.

QUOTE:

Making Wedges

There are no razor tangs at the pivot larger then 1/4"
Starting with 1/8" thick material means you always have enough
The outside end of most vintage razors have a thickness of less than .065" more in the arena of .055" - .045" that is pretty darn thin
The thickness of the inside edge of the wedge would therefore determine the "Angle"
So set the angle form .045" at one end to .125 at the other on a 1" x 1" wedge this gives you the work angle, now you simple adjust the fit from there by thinning the .125" end...
Drill the hole and fit to the razor...

If you ALWAYS start with a 1x1 with these dimensions, it gets really easy for you to set the wedge for the different sized razors

Keep in mind there are basically 4 sizes of tangs

#1. 11/16 and below
#2. 13/16 and above
#3. 6/8 the oddball
#4 The old Stubtail / Frameback flats

Theses are the basics, of course there will be some that mess with your brain, if you mess with enough razors, which I am sure you will have in your hand "Murphy's Law"

The Mock Up bolts are an invaluable asset, as are the Mock tangs which you need 3 sizes 1/8, 3/16, and 1/4, to give the correct build angles

ps: It is not that I am really smart, it is that I have done a crap load of restores over the last 10 years, and already made all these mistakes for you

pps: Yes you really can do all the work on one side of the wedge, when you make the cut or sand it to fit, it will square up

I do hope this is of some help and again, Glen, please forgive me.

Well said Cud um ah Glen
I aim got 1/8" 3mm max thickness for scales and have gone down to 1/16" 1.6mm with bone/Ivory and some synthetic materials
Plus 1 the wedge will determine your maximum thickness for flex to pivot

When you are sanding the scales you must have each scale the same thickness. If different, they will not flex evenly.

Use a digital caliper to make sure the thickness is the same end to end and each scale is within .002 inches of each other.

Good luck

Typically, I will make crowned scales 0.090" - 0.095" thick. Flat scales are about 0.065" thick.

I will use a 60 grit belt until the material is 0.010" oversize, then switch to 220 grit,

I hope this helps.

Use a dust mask that fits your face all the way around the edge and be ready to shower, change and wash clothes after power sanding any fiber, glass or carbon filled materials. Long term exposure can be hazardous to your future enjoyment.
JMO
~Richard

Thanks to the following:
cudarunner
Glen (data by cudarunner)
RezDog
Substance
rolodave
Tim Zowada
Geezer

So much information from y'all that I am approaching information overload!!

With all this information, plus some from Youtube, I firmly believe I'm ready to give it a shot. I do need to order additional belts for my sander but everything else I have on hand.

Thanks All

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Use a dust mask that fits your face all the way around the edge and be ready to shower, change and wash clothes after power sanding any fiber, glass or carbon filled materials. Long term exposure can be hazardous to your future enjoyment.
JMO
~Richard

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Richard,
A special thanks for the safety input. I have been paying special attention to the dust warnings since I already live with COPD and have to pay special attention to anything that affects breathing. I do have a good mask with replaceable filters that I use religiously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diboll

Richard,
A special thanks for the safety input. I have been paying special attention to the dust warnings since I already live with COPD and have to pay special attention to anything that affects breathing. I do have a good mask with replaceable filters that I use religiously.

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Thank for the reply, I worked many years in situations where speed was essential and safety was way down the list. I am paying back dues for those days.
Be well and prosper!
~Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diboll

Richard,
A special thanks for the safety input. I have been paying special attention to the dust warnings since I already live with COPD and have to pay special attention to anything that affects breathing. I do have a good mask with replaceable filters that I use religiously.

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In that case you should keep in mind that no filter is perfect. Do everything possible to remove the dirty air and replace it with clean air but continue to wear that mask.

Don't put too much weight on my advice, because I'm pretty new at this. But, here's a couple of thoughts:

-- The range you quoted of up to 0.12" is just about 1/8 (0.125"). So you don't have to thin much. I've been using 1/8 wood and now acrylic. I don't concentrate on thinning.
-- If you are going to round the scales like we commonly see, then you will create the illusion of much thinner scales. Its because of the thinner edges.
-- You will thin them some just from sanding out the scratches.

I'll be interested in hearing how the epoxy resin works out. Don't forget some pictures.

When it comes to dust it is all toxic, but some are worse than others. A belt and suspenders is the very best approach, dost control and a respirator, and as Richard mention change clothes and shower.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrHouston

-- The range you quoted of up to 0.12" is just about 1/8 (0.125"). So you don't have to thin much. I've been using 1/8 wood and now acrylic. I don't concentrate on thinning.

I'll be interested in hearing how the epoxy resin works out. Don't forget some pictures.

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The range of up to 0.12" was on existing razors.

If the epoxy resin was 0.12" and uniform I would be happy as a lark. What I've got to deal with is up 0.221" and varies in thickness.

I was actually looking for acrylic when I ran across the epoxy resin. Where do you get your acrylic?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Thank for the reply, I worked many years in situations where speed was essential and safety was way down the list. I am paying back dues for those days.
Be well and prosper!
~Richard

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Been there, done that. Plus I abused myself with tobacco for many years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

In that case you should keep in mind that no filter is perfect. Do everything possible to remove the dirty air and replace it with clean air but continue to wear that mask.

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I do my sanding in the open air. If there is not a cross breeze I run a floor fan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RezDog

When it comes to dust it is all toxic, but some are worse than others. A belt and suspenders is the very best approach, dost control and a respirator, and as Richard mention change clothes and shower.

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My belt sander has a dust collection port that I hook my shop vac to.

If after all of the above it seems to have a detrimental effect, I'll send the razors to someone else to re-scale.

I have very little experience with power tools other than those I need to maintain things around the house = namely a drill. I do have a bunch of Japanese hand saws, but no power saws. I have a random orbital sander and a whack of different kinds of sandpaper and micro mesh pads, but no belt, disc or drum sander. I use a fret saw and do not own a jig saw or power scroll saw. I do have and often use a Dremel, but don’t own a buffer.

All of that was said in public to convince myself to try to make some scales using only hand tools. I saw a video of Charlie Lewis doing just that on YouTube and have been tossing that idea around for quite a while. While I have nowhere near the expertise and experience of Mr. Lewis, he certainly has motivated me to try.

Are all the precautions mentioned above as necessary when using only hand tools?

Precautions are always necessary, but you have to remember that power tools are more likely to cause a lot of airborne dust. Hand tools and wet sanding keep it out of the air, but you still need to clean up well and wet disposable rags are good when using hand tools, as opposed to a vacuum. If you are using G-10 the dust is har core. As a rule if you can smell it you need a mask. I have a ton of dust control via vacuums in my shop and it is rare that you can smell what you are working on but I still wear a mask when working with G-10,yellow cedar, pacific yew, and red cedar. All of those and many more are high on the chart of bad stuff, and all are in my workshop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diboll

I was actually looking for acrylic when I ran across the epoxy resin. Where do you get your acrylic?

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I've only bought acrylic once and it was recent. I found pretty reasonable prices and shipping at Delvie's Plastics: LINK
It's about $6 per square foot for 1/8 thick. I bought 5 sheets to make shipping worth while at $13.50.

Yes, the pink 3M filters are really good. Richard mentioned this, though I'll mention again. G-10 and carbon fiber produce dust you never want to be exposed to without a proper respirator. Not the cheap little dust masks, but a good respirator.

I also where a long sleeve tee with a rubber band around the writs and exam gloves with these two materials, otherwise you get a couple of days of fiber glass arms.

Both materials are also hard on equipment and wear out sanding belts and blades.

I don't work with those two materials unless I have a good reason, such as a liner for a pair of scales where I have concern that they may break.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pete123

I also where a long sleeve tee with a rubber band around the writs and exam gloves with these two materials, otherwise you get a couple of days of fiber glass arms.

Both materials are also hard on equipment and wear out sanding belts and blades.

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From having worked in the Auto Body Trade on all kinds of rigs that had fiberglass I'll tell you a little tip.

Cold/Cool Water Showers & Cold/Cool Water Washing of Hands & Arms are your friends. Hot/Warm water just opens the pores up more and the glass digs deeper and takes longer to get rid of.

I hated working with that crap------------

Well, I think I may have gone off the deep end. Need to do scales for a couple of razors so I ordered some material. Since I didn't want to make them all the same, by the time I finisher ordering I should have enough material for the rest of my life.
Attachment 289553Attachment 289554
Two examples from one supplier. And that ain't all!!!
Like I said, it will take take the rest of my life to use it all.

If you only have enough material to last the rest of this life, you are just getting started. I have a lot of scale material.

JMO
For working with bone or horn, I do the cutting out at a friend's wood shop. When I get home, I "WET" file, scrape and sand the shape and contours at the kitchen sink The material dust and shaving go down the drain and cleanup is a cinch. Then I use alcohol to remove water from the steel tools.

I hone at the sink also
I made a removable work surface for the sink. Newer sinks may have "Corian" surfaces to fit them as an option. Some home stores also carry them in some common sizes
YMMV
~Richard

Tons of great advice in this thread!

I've also settled into ripping to and using 1/8" stock to start for all scales. After they're rough cut I use some light double sided tape to join the inside of both halves - or - light spray adhesive on a length of tissue between the halves and allowed to dry for a bit. That allows for exact matches on all angles. Also allow me to "round" the scales if desired in a way that tends to keep them equal width while creating complex angles and curves.

Sanding will indeed remove more material than you may intend so be careful as you get close to the width and shapes you desire. Change to higher grits and/or slower speeds as you approach the desired width or shape.

Bevels on scales can be a bear to get matched on both sides though. This is where I change the belt grit to something higher and go very slowly. Avoid the sanding disk when doing bevels and use the belt - at least that's where I sometimes go wrong. It's easy to tilt the plate on my disk sander to keep the angles the same, but once I get into the top part of the scales (the inside of the curve) it's not possible to catch it all and things can start to get uneven.

I'm working on a set of scales now that are quite different and presented a few puzzles to solve due to it's geometry, but so far so good since I've been careful to match all angles and work slowly using 400 or higher grit after initial rough shaping.

The wedge can be a real puzzle at times but Glenn's quote above is great advice - tough to remember to measure the angles but it saves a lot of time and headache later on. You really don't want to have to peen and remove pins multiple times - this is where micro fasteners come in very handy! I also keep a set of 4 fake tangs of the widths Glenn mentioned handy to use in mockups. I just removed two from trashed blades and the other two I made from excess wood strips. Amazing how handy they are to use.

I always rip 2 sets of scale blanks for every set I'm going to use. Easy to do when you have a few lifetimes worth of raw stock. Sometimes I sand or cut the first set too much or at the wrong angle and have to go to the backup set. Mostly I'll get ideas about changes to the design while shaping and just run with it. If the idea doesn't pan out, I still have the backup set roughed out and ready to get back on track.

Finally, synthetic materials are sneaky bad stuff. I normally use a respirator but sometimes it's just too tempting to touch the scales to a belt sander for just a second or two without it all. In those cases I make sure I'm at least wearing a paper mask - try to avoid cutting or sanding man-made stuff without wearing a mask at least. Have to admit I'll just hold my breath for a few seconds if all I'm doing is touching G10 to a belt sander for a second - but that's rare and I know it's bad for me.