Printable View
Hey I've been thinking about inlays a bit and have a couple questions..
I read somewhere about heating horn and inlay to press it into the horn instead of cutting a space out for the inlay.
So I took a look at some of my scales and it does indeed seem as though this or a combination of the two were used to attach the inlays.
Anybody here do that or have?
If you look closely it looks like the inlay (on some) was pressed in with heat, looks slightly melted..
:idea:
I dont know anything about it but, id guess that the fibers in the horn would need to be cut/scored before you could really press it in. I will watch this one. Sounds enteresting. Thats for bringing it up Mike T.
sounds interesting. i would think it might take a lot of pressure?
Mike
Can't see heat and pressing inlay in. Wouldn't the inlay material crack. Thought maybe heat and metal die to make impression.
The fibers that a good point, leads me to assume that if they did use heat, then it would be in conjunction with cutting.. e.g. Cutting the recession, and then heating up the horn and the inlay and pressing it in..
Perhaps it would make a really good bond if the edges of the horn were pressed down while still pliable to "grab" on to the inlay edges..?
I'm sure someone aound here has to have some experience with that.
Seems so many secrets were lost from long ago.
Of course this could only be done with metal inlay pieces. And thin inlay pieces too like little charms that are mianly hollow. But then you might warp or damage the shape of the charm using heat and pressing.
Sorry about that, I should have specified "metal" inlays.
The topic of inlays has been somewhat skipping across my mind like a stone on a pond for a while now.
Most of the designing I do takes place in my mind before I draw out and then execute any sort of work.
There are some ideas that are forming in regard to inlays, and I want to get a more clear idea of how it was done.
One concept is creating a "structural" adhesion without the need for any glue or pins.. and I'm wondering if that was what they achieved... ?
Would probably only work with a scale material that can melt, I think.
The subject has come up before.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeT
One method that was used to inlay a metal ( lead/ pewter ) inlay in horn and bone and plastic pocket knife scales was to have a/ or two pins attached to the back of the inlay that were pinned on the back side of the scale.
Another was to press a soft metal into the relieved area ( the opening was undercut around the edges, with a decorative punch.
There are some that are both methods combined.
There must be more ways also.
Have fun!
~Richard
I have something interesting. I will try to share tomorrow!
Yesterday, today was tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
Thanks Richard!Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer
I've considered using independent pins or pins that are a part of the back of the inlay.
When you say "undercut" does that mean the edge goes in to make a slight inverted lip to catch the edge of the inlay? ... this is what I imagined.
Either that or possibly the inlay could have a bevel on the top edge and the horn could be heated and pressed down and over that bevel to lock the inlay in place..
Just ideas, I realize without the knowledge I could be commenting on something that is already well known.
I could not find pics. I should have to take some more as I get home...
Anyway, ran across this one. The inlays go clean through the horn....
Attachment 293238Attachment 293239
Oooo I like that one! Looks fairly easy to do.. just drill the holes, clean them up, and tap the metal rods in.
Hey you know what would be cool, if you guys have different examples of various forms of inlays. These rod style inlays are a good example of variability..
Edit:
I thought about tapping in a rod like that at the wedge in place of a standard pin. Have seen that before.
Great concept to work with!
Not really inlays, are they? :shrug:
A long-ago member replicated those scales and deemed them junk. Did an awesome job!
I begged for them on customs and restos.
He sent them to me from Europe!
Junk??? Hmmm that's a dubious appraisal. I think they look great, there may be trade-offs with any design depending on the value given to any one aspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
On that one I notice that the two scales "might" have different flex strengths due to the oversized pin inlays only on one side, which could lead to one scale finding a different flex resting place..
Perhaps put them on the other side too?
No need probably.. it's an awesome design in my book.
Lots of bug damage and de-lamination on them. CA and dyed epoxy got them going again.
One of those 'Butchered Blades' razors! ;)
Good questions!
These pewter inlays are combination of pins rivited on the backside and pressing into the recess. They seem to have undercut the openings so the pieces are firmly controlled for the last century.
Attachment 293335
And, yes the shrinkage is different between the scales:
Attachment 293336
YMMV
Have fun!
~Richard
Excellent! Thank you again Richard.
Though it presents the need for more work, I tend to like symmetry.. so an equal inlay on each side..?
Does anyone have the temperature that horn becomes plasticized? And then what range do we have to work with before it is too soft and/or begins to burn or bubble?
Not that it would be necessary.. but a laser temp reader might be handy in that regard.
How about carving a recess with undercut perimeter to key the inlay into the scale, then pour melted pewter into the recess? The melting point of pewter is 338-447F. Paper burns at 451F, I'm assuming horn would burn near or beyond that point, but I'm not sure. If so carve away in the horn, pour pewter in, then sand pewter flush and polish. This is all speculation, never tried it myself but worth a try.
Shrinkage is a real issue. With wood if you use a thin enough veneer it will do whatever the substrate does without buckling or cracking. That being said the few razors I have that have inlay in horn use thin metal with tabs on the back, they also appear to be inletted into the horn. All the ones I have have buckled from the horn shrinking but the scales haven’t seemed to warp near as bad as the one geezer had a pic of.
I would use a sharp exacto knife and inlet the inlay flush and use tabs to hold it as opposed to epoxy with the idea that the horn will shrink. The other option is to use old horn scales that have already shrunk, they should be more stable. Keep them hydrated with nearsfoot should move too much on you.
I have a set that need to be restored on a faux frameback. If I get to it before you do I’ll make sure to report back.
You may be able to "brand it" in. About the only thing I haven't tried with horn. You can bend and shape horn with a hair dryer. I tried some heating methods with and without oil in toaster oven but what a mess that turned into. Made horn bacon and that ended that experiment. The funk took 2 years to leave the garage and had to hazmat the oven :<0) Soaking does make horn soft like it does your finger nails but not sure that would help pressing a thin plate into it. I would just cut it in if I were to do it. You don'y see a lot of detail in those old inlays that I recall. Diamonds shapes and such are easy enough to cut out.
So this came out like s***, but I got a lot of info from trying it. Long term is yet to be seen. As the horn shrinks I’m afraid the inlay will pop out.
I took the embossment from a set of celluloid that was completely twisted and off gassing, luckily the blade is ok and only needed light hand sanding and buffing with very little pitting left.
I started by finishing the rough out of the scales which ends for me at 320 grit, at this point any shaping has been done and I’m about to move to wet sanding. I used some scotch 2 sided tape and put it on the scales then applied the inlay where I wanted it and firmly pressed it on. It was pretty stable. I used a marking knife to out line it which went fine, then I removed the inlay and tape and was left with just the outline. I used an 1/8” chisel and started excavating the horn inside of the outline, I also continually cut the out line deeper and deeper. Mind you, the inlay is only about .005” thick. The inlay was is so intricate and small it took me about 30 minutes to get the depth I wanted. Unfortunately the horn started delaminating if I wasn’t careful. The delaminations appear as whitish spots. To combat it I tried cutting them out. It worked but then you can see the areas where the horn is cut out wider than the inlay.
I tried filler, that resulted in white outline. I tried using ca glue to fill in the delaminations, which didn’t work though I believe would have if I had had the ultra thin ca.
2 things:
Next time I’ll do the outline the same, but, afterwards I’d steam the horn to make it softer and less likely to start delaminating/flaking while I cut out the recess.
I’ll have the ultra thin ca and do a coat inside the recess then apply the inlay with normal viscosity ca.
Attachment 301483
The inlay is exposed and flush, it can’t be felt if you run your fingers over it. The recess for the inlay is inlay as deep as the inlay is thick, I’m hoping this allows the horn to shrink and move and just take the inlay along for the ride without any finish issues.
Not a bad job. I bet cutting out that tiny shape would be tough.
Pain in the rear, had I’d done a better job it would have been well worth the trouble. If I do it again a far simpler shape and some steam would make an easily job of it.
Thank you for this tutorial! This was very informative! Every bit of inlay info I'm trying to really take in, inlays have always been a big interest for me, though I've never really dug in to the project.Quote:
Originally Posted by jfk742
When dealing with most scale material (I assume g10 doesn't expand/contract much though), you will always experience a degree of warping I think. The usual temp expansion/contraction could pop inlays out, but usually bounces back. Long term contraction though, like with horn, seems an issue. I assume keeping it oiled is key.
I wonder if oiling it before the process will help the horn find a stable resting place before the work..? Probably.
Old horn too is a good idea.
I have experienced warping in a few ways, so I'm always keeping it in mind now. Having thicker CA on one side of scales than the other, caused a set of scales to warp because CA contracts when it dries, and the one side "overpowered" the other.
You had a tough job on that horn because it's so hard to cover up or blend delamination, even with thin CA, and inclusions are a result. (Tough job also with the intricacy of inlay and other challenges). And so the scales are often just dyed.
Ive wondered how effective a vacuum chamber would be, though I don't think anything will remove the inclusions 100%.
Maybe keeping the spot wet with oil while digging out, but that would mess with the glue when inlay is placed.. Unless glue is not used.
Thanks JFK. Always enjoy seeing restoration tutorials.
Oh, excellent job on the inlay by the way!
We are often our own toughest critics, I think your work was very good, especially since its "hopefully" only the beginning, and you continue to explore and develop the process..
I think with some small carving tools would be a much better choice. I assume inlays in Bakelite they molded them in. The usual horn inlays seem much more straight forward as they’re way less intricate, though they are also way thicker and have tabs on the back, so no adhesive needed. Keeping the scales hydrated with oil would probably take care of the usual issues we see in vintage razors with inlayed horn.
I need to find another victim and try some different things.
