Share your tricks to centering a blade in scales.

I bet a lot of us have spent the time making that perfect set of scales encluding the wedge, drilling the pin holes as perfect as can be. Then put it together and find the blade doesnt center. And possibly was out of whack so the edge hits the scale edge. I know ive ran across this a time or two. Or three or four or.....

So, share your tricks to help get a perfectly centered blade. Ive read about a few ways recently but thought it would be good to share with all. So that someday you might need this info and be able to find it. Not like trying to find something in the "what are you working on" thread.

So post up how and why with as much detail as possible. Some of us are a little slow (me) so we need simple but detail explanations.

Thinning the end of one scale is the best method I have found.
Finding the exact area to reduce helps.

I always glue one side of the wedge, and tighten this pin last. Don't get me wrong, I still mess up.

I preach and practice "tap, tap, tap", not whack, whack, whack with a small ball pien hammer. I have found that nothing is foolproof.

If your razor has a hole larger than your pins, use sleeves. More often than not, a bent pen will happen if things don't start out snug. I recently had this one shown to me by a mentor friend on a razor exchange to compare edges.

I've had success with using JB weld instead of pivot pin sleeves. If my blade is straight with no problems I would use a sleeve, but the JB Weld allows me to drill the pivot hole on an angle.
This angled pivot hole is not a fix all, as other little tricks are good to implement. And there's probably other better ways, this is just one I've used.

These things work well for me.

Assure that the sides of the wedge are flat to start with; Sand paper almost always leaves a high center on the wedge. I lay a smooth file on the bench and scrape the wedge against it, like lapping a hone, till the surface is flat. Use a light to see that all is flat and the same visual surface.

Leaving the center of the hole at correct diameter, I taper both end diameters of the hole toward the center.

I slightly dish, by scraping, (half a paper thickness) each side of the wedge to its edges, leaving a slight hollow which will allow the ends of the scales to be tight around the wedge even if the scales are wiggled during pinning.

Gluing on scale to the wedge has not worked for me.

Trim the wedge to final edge with the scales after doing the pinning.
JMO, YMMV
~Richard
PS. Sounds like a lot of work but is actually adding only about two minutes to the job...how much does fixing an un-centered blade take?

Richard I'm a little slow sometimes, how does the wedge affect the centering of the blade?
How does adjusting the wedge change the centering?
I just need a better visual understanding described or shown.

EDIT: I also like to do the final tightening of the wedge after the blade is set. This was a big one for me when on accident I did it and was surprised by the results!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeT

Richard I'm a little slow sometimes, how does the wedge affect the centering of the blade?
How does adjusting the wedge change the centering?
I just need a better visual understanding described or shown.

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Take a credit card, by one end,between the thumb and index finger of your hand. Move them in opposite directions. The other end of the credit card moves to left or right or up and down or both.
Hope that did it.
~Richard

My Solution

Attachment 296485

Before I start the scales I check the razor

This simple step eliminates so many issues for me because I know in advance that the razor is going to be "Off" that allows me to bake the "Fix" into the cake :p



https://i.imgur.com/dfQ2FFf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/M8XR4FA.jpg

Now if you know this before the build you can begin using any of the tricks we all know ahead of time :)

Charlie aka Spazola made a great graphic about how to move them years ago that you can find
here and in the Sticky of this forum

https://straightrazorpalace.com/work...tml#post905657

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Before I start the scales I check the razor

This simple step eliminates so many issues for me because I know in advance that the razor is going to be "Off" that allows me to bake the "Fix" into the cake :p


Now if you know this before the build you can begin using any of the tricks we all know ahead of time :)

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That and using bolts to do the mock up so you can figure out what works and make adjustments before committing to the pinning, is what I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Charlie aka Spazola made a great graphic about how to move them years ago that you can find
here and in the Sticky of this forum

https://straightrazorpalace.com/work...tml#post905657

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Thank you Glen! And thank you Spazola for making that post/visual ... That really helps.
I copied the pic and it's going in my workbook!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spazola

That and using bolts to do the mock up so you can figure out what works and make adjustments before committing to the pinning, is what I do.

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hehehe and that also is in the sticky

https://straightrazorpalace.com/work...tip-bench.html


Jeez Charlie we are reaching WAY WAY back on some of these

Firstly, I don't make scales so am at the mercy of vintage ones. Their warps and shrinks.
I have to correct what I have to fit what I have as the correction cannot be made into the scales.
An obvious thing to do is mock-up the bottom and see if a length of rod or something pushed through is level at the top before test-fitting the blade.

Attachment 296486

If it is, a test-fit of the blade is appropriate. If not, how to proceed depends greatly upon scale material and the tang of the razor.
Some blades, particularly hefty tangs in horn, rely on the tang taper to spread the scales for blade entry. at times, omitting the spacers lets the tang do it's job perfectly. Then, at times, some judicious filing on the inside of one scale will even the closure up.

A bit of sawing the pin-holes, top and/or bottom a bit with a drill bit will often get things straight. Of course this will spoil pinning ivory or bone collarless.
Also, in doing this, you are laterally shifting the scales, so wedge-fit, etc can be effected.

Oversizing the pin-holes or slightly slotting them with a drill bit in the right direction(s) can help to a degree combined with directional peening.
Then, sometimes you have to push things the direction you want them to go and employ directional peening...
(Extreme example?)

Attachment 296492
Attachment 296493

Un-moving and unforgiving old bone and ivory combined with a leaning tang makes for some heady experimentation.
Sometimes it works. Sometimes not. You always learn something, however!

https://straightrazorpalace.com/work...ng-blades.html

It can be frustrating, but I have learned to not go grinding at old scales and tangs to get there. Easy to take off and hard to put back!

You have to get an engineering mindset and think of what will get you where you want to be.
Occams razor often is the ticket. Oft-times I go all the way around the block and wind-up with something simple close to where I began.


Like...'Why didn't I try that FIRST?' :rofl2:

What I finally decided was to not over complicate it. Usually is a simple solution.

Posted in the wrong thread, my method of centering the blade.

https://straightrazorpalace.com/work...ml#post1843194

Sanding works for bent tangs or whole blades as does adding a shim extra small thrust washer, not a full-size thrust washer. Here pre-fitting with nut and bolt can give a preview of coming attractions.

I taper and slightly enlarge the pin holes, with a tapered diamond bit that comes in a cheap Harbor Freight Dremel diamond bit set. I don’t recall the exact price but around $10 for the set.

The 1/8 in bit tapers to a point and is just the right taper for a pin hole, (From 1/8 in to O in about 1.5 inches). I keep the tapered bit in a pin vise and just give it a few turns in the hole after it is drilled to give the pin room to expand from the top, the dome side. Test fit your pin to ensure you have a little wiggle room and that you can see the extra space on the outside of the hole on the scale, (the taper) just a hair.

I start with a drilled, 1/16 in hole and adjust with other bits in pin vises. I have several pin vises set up with different bits and drill sizes. I also very lightly chamfer the out side of the pin hole with a tiny chamfer bit just break the corner, I think I got from a Jewelry supply dealer, it too is in a pin vise.

I suspect, if the hole is straight drilled, the pin wants to expand at the point of least resistance, between the pin hole in the razor and the inside of the scale. The scale is at this point not tight to the razor tang, a micro bulge can form.

If you taper the hole you allow the pin to expand at the head and pull the scale down onto the tang snuggly. A Secondary effect is a thin scale is less likely to split from the pressure.

I also pre-form, peen the pin head, on an old drill press collet, I pick up and polished. The three fingered collet prevents the pin from bulging, allowing just the head to expand. And once you start assembling the razor and scales you only have to fiddle with one side and all the pressure is going in one direction, (From outside in) with less chance of bulging from the middle out. If you peen the pin on the razor from both sides, you double the chance of bulging or bending the pin.

The tapered and slightly larger holes give you wiggle room to move the pin forward or back to make centering adjustments.

Fitting the hole to the pin also give you the opportunity to look at the pin, not all stock is the same thickness. If you just drill all your holes 1/16 inch and you get a slightly thicker pin the pressure has to go someplace. The pin does not just expand at the head as it is peened. You could mic the pins, but I just eye ball & compare to the pin hole and fit the hole to the pin.

If you take a few minutes of preparation and planning, you can avoid a lot of problems. Worst case, don’t be afraid to un-pin and start over mocking up and adjusting until it closed centered on the bolts, rather than break a set of scales you have a lot of time invested in.

What i see so far to help a guy out is the tapering of the scales holes and tapering the wedge holes. This will allow room for things to move. And with tightening the wedge pin last, gives you the ability to push the wedge end one way or the other to get the tip of the blade centered.

The only issue i see doing this is now your perfectly shaped scales and wedge will need some more sanding to line up side to side perfectly and not have one scale longer than the other, or the wedge showing a bit of its side with one scales longer than the other. So this step in test fitting needs to be done way in advance of the final sanding the finish coatings.
Not right before pinning!

Am i right in this, or an i missing something?

I always leave the wedge long, and finish the scales while they are taped together, so you do not round over the inside where the wedge will go.

The scales are finished, but I expect to final finish the wedge, sand and polish once it is completely pinned and centered. Then a quick final sand or filing of the wedge and scales to the wedge fully meet the inside of the scales without any gaps.

Light sanding and light buffing with a green compound wheel will blend the wedge and scales together in one piece.

Not sure I understood your question, but final finish of the wedge is done when it is pinned tight.

I've had many askew vintage razors that were hitting the scales and it was a PITA,
but I was always able to get them to close and open without hitting the edge on the scales, but it wasn't easy

Nothing fancy was done, but hitting your pin on different parts will make your blade open and close in a different way

I can't recall exactly hitting it where did what, but I experimented A LOT with it, hitting the pin on one side on top, on the bottom, in the bottom left/right corner, top left/right, middle left/right, etc. same for the other side of the pin

It DOES work, but it took a LOT of trial and error on my part, including drilling the pins out a few times and trying again

I do have a note somewhere I noted down which areas of the pin made the razor tilt and move to what side, it actually had a bigger impact than I expected and I was able to close askew razors in warped scales that way (It not only moves the blade closer to one side of the scales, but also tilts / twists your blade)

I wish I could find my notes somewhere though

Dunno what happened with my attached photos on post 14?
Here they are.....in order! Good stuff! :roflmao

Attachment 296595
Attachment 296596
Attachment 296597

Thanks Tom. I couldnt get the pics to work the first time you put them up.

Marty, i normally shape my scales with them together. But thats just a basic shaping. Rounding corners and such. I then make my wedge. I leave it a big long and wide. Bolt scales to wedge and drop the blade in to be sure it fits like i want. Then take blade out and sand wedge end of scales and wedge so it fits perfectly.

Take it all apart and sand the scales to the point of a finish coat of whatever im going to put on them. Coat them with many coats (this takes me a week) then bolt the wedge, blade and scales together for a final check. At this point if i bolted them togehter and made last minute adjustments to get blade to center, than the scales and wedge wouldnt sit as nice as there were in the beginning becuase ive moved them from there intended possition.

So the point im making is to get the basic shaping done, make a wedge, test fit with a blade to check wedge thickness, bolt it all togehter and check alignment. Then sand wedge end and wedge in that possition. At that point remove wedge and continue sanding and finish coatings. Then bolt it together again, check to be sure all is right as it should still be and pin.

If after the final coating was done i then sanded a bit because things needed adjusted for blade centering, then id be spending another few days fixing the wedge, scales and final coatings on both.

Hope this make sense now. Sometime i get carried away with the details and they still look bad. Or after checking it centers right but after all the rest of the work it goes whacko for some reason. Lol.

Jerry, I see what you are saying if you are applying a film finish on scales. I do not apply film finish. I do mostly Horn, Antler, Bone, Micarta or Polyester and Acrylic and buff the finish. So, it is not a big problem to refinish the edges of the wedge. If I do wood it is a hard wood, buffed finish, not film. I am a big fan of horn.

I sand and file with a (small, sharp 6 in metal file), the wedge and scales after the whole razor is pinned tight, I file the wedge flush and a little on the scales to get a tight fit and the shape needed, getting the scales to meet if length is adjusted, (but not usually too much length) and that the ends are flat where the scales meet the wedge at the edge.

If you were doing a film finish, I would think you could just dab the edges with CA, hit it with Accelerator, sand and polish. I have done that with other wood projects or for repairs. Finish sand to 1k and buff. CA is quick and tough, and you can build it up to fill gaps and low spots or for a thicker finish. With accelerator you can build it quickly.

Geezer made a good analogy about holding a credit card between you thumb and forefinger, then move you fingers back and forth, just a bit. Notice how much it moves the end of the card and in which direction. The slightest movement move the tip of the card a 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. So, it does not take much movement to change the alignment and it is almost impossible to fit it, take it apart, then put it back together and get it back exactly where you fit it.

Lock it all down then trim and finish.

Yes, we were talking about different finishes and i see what your saying. With the horn and such it would be a different story all together. Also, i agree that with the adjusting of the wedge wnd and the shifting of the scales it would be a very slight amount. But sometimes being off a touch can be too much for some folks. Ive still hot a few of my first attemps at aligning/centering a blade. If i get a chance and think about it i will post a couple. Its not pretty but 8t got the job done. I will need to do them again some day.

One other thing that does not get talked about much is the collars. I believe that domed or hollow collars, like “Stacked Sheffield’s” have a spring tension, that is easier to adjust and keep even pressure on the pivot pin and even the wedge, as a razor is opened and closed the scales flexed, in & out, up & down and back and forward. Vintage razors rarely have glued wedges, the whole design was probably intended to move with the opening and closing of a blade.

Large domed collars were common in pre-1900 razors, it may have been more than an aesthetic consideration.Combined with a looser fit, makes adjusting tension and alignment easier, perhaps why pivot pin holes were often punched.

Strange things we miss sometimes are at fault.

I have a very early Torrey I rescaled in picbone. It would close center 15 times and then veer off.
Bent pin? Nope? Tried everything. Made NO sense!
I finally revisited it a few years later and discovered by wear on the pin that the pivot-hole had been punched at a strange angle.
As the blade moved around on the pin, it would begin to bind and go to the side.

I ran a reamer through it, popped an aluminum rivet in and peened the aluminum mandrel into the middle.
I then drilled it straight through the aluminum plug and fixed it.

Who knew?

Nice way to fill and drill a wonky pivot hole, Tom. I've seen some that look like they were punched from both sides. And the punches never seem to line up right. But close enough for a pin. I found some brass tubing with a 1/16" hole and I've used it as a bushing. Still not a solid fit but much better than nothing.

Marty, you might have a point. I've used both solid and cupped collars. I liked the cupped ones better but I hadn't thought about them playing a part in tension. I like my blade tight! Not just enough to hold open. This has caused me issues before.

Here are a couple of things I've found.

First, use a drill press to drill the pinning holes while they are still flat - before rounding the scales. The drill press needn't be fancy - I use a Dremel press. If the holes aren't straight it will cause problems every time.

Next, after drilling tape or hold the scales together. Use a piece of pin that is roughly 3 inches and put it through the holes. It should balance perfectly straight at all angles. I also put the pin through the holes and hold it up to ensure that both ends match exactly. If they don't match at this point and you pin it with them even, it will push the blade in one direction or the other.