Electrolysis, anyone tried it?

I read a post a while back about electrolysis on the site and it didn't seem too many were interested in it. I've seen some pretty impressive results from electrolysis and found some good info about it. Being an electronic tech by trade and working on science degrees at college I think I'm going to give it a whirl with some nasty blades when I get a chance just thought I'd see if anyone else has tried yet and what their results were. From what I've read electrolysis can actually recover some of that rust converting it back to iron. I've attached a .pdf on electrolysis and found a site for a guy that uses it to restore old gin traps and he tested it out on an extremely worse case horse shoe (just looks like a blob of rust) and was able to recover what metal was left under that rust without all that hard labor and metal removal involved in sanding. That can be found here:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm

He does mention that with electrolysis some of the hydrogen can make it's way into the metal and make the metal brittle called hydrogen embrittlement but he said he has yet to have this happen to him on a piece and that if it does happen there is a method to speed the rate that the hydrogen leaves the metal at by heating it to about 150 celcius (302 farenheit). He says it shouldn't mess with the tempering too much and I don't know that much about metallurgy to tell wether it would or not but I would imagine if a dremel could at the temperatures the razor might reach during sanding (nowhere near 150 celcius, that sucker would be extremely hot) then I'm sure such a process would mess with a razor's temper.

I did notice he uses low amperage for longer periods of time (24-48 hours and recommends 1mA per square centimeter) whereas a lot of the other info that I've seen on the web has guys hooking up battery chargers that crank out several amps.

My plan is to buy some junker rusted up razors, probably on flea bay or from an antique shop and give it a whirl, since I'm an ET I'll probably engineer a little box so I can control and monitor the voltage and amperage that I'm drawing through the solution to do the electrolysis as well as adjust it (this can be done very easily .. for me).

Just thought I'd see if anyone has done it yet, when I do get around to it I'll post pictures and results. My theory at this point is that I'll be able to preserve things like acid etching on blades as well as clean out rust in areas like jimps, the pin-hole in the shank and other hard to get areas in razors. Obviously it won't fix pitting though, that'll still require removal of metal to remove the pitting.

I took some before and after pics but never posted them because I think this method is stupid (for razors, great for auto parts) the rust did come off or convert to steel-hard and dark, black steel. The sanding to remove this discoloration seemed to be much harder than it would have been to sand and remove the rust. -1 rating from me.

It would be worth a shot IMHO. Be sure to give us lots of PICS!!!

I wouldn't do it. From what I've gathered in my trips around the internet, electrolytic rust removal can cause hydrogen embrittlement of your blade, or any other temperred steel items. This in turn can create a layer of brittle metal which us susceptible to chipping, especially when you hone (or strop or *shave with*) your razor.

Try this. Rub your rusty or oxidized blade with aluminum foil... it creates a low-rate thermite reaction, and the aluminum binds preferentially with the oxygen in the rust, leaving you with relatively clean looking steel. Try it, it's quick... just be careful with your edges and fingers!

Or, better yet, load up your (or a friend's!) vibratory case tumbler with walnut shell medium and polishing cream and leave it be for a day or two... go check out the restoration forum for results, they are *impressive*!

I just picked up some razors on ebay today, the most rusty of which is going to be my first candidate for the electrolysis, it'll be sometime still though as have to wait to rcv the razors and have to order some parts from newark.com to build my little box to control the amount of amperage during the process.

I did mention hydrogen embrittlement in my original post and the link to the site that I referenced is the guy that uses electrolysis to restore gin traps he said he has yet to have it occur to him on a piece.

This is an interesting idea--let us know how it works out.

I'm not sure what the lowest temperature is that'll start changing the temper of the steel, but I know 350 to 375 will do it. A normal blade tempering range is 400 to 450. Getting the blade hot enough will soften it.

Josh

Well you can't reverse the process. I don't think you can get that oxygen away from the iron because it really, really likes it. Maybe you can clean off the old stuff. Even if somehow you could break the chemical bond the remaining iron would be altered and not to the benefit of the razor.

However it sounds like a good experiment so let us know how it goes.

I will be watching this thread; if this works it would be a great alternative for those of us who don’t have case tumblers.

There are some places where The State makes every attempt to keep good citizens in the dark about anything to do with firearms…” no no no… you don’t need arms… the state will protect you” … Yea!!! Right!!!... anywho that’s another discussion.

This would be quiet, cheep, clean and almost effortless… hope it’s not too good to be true.
As for hydrogen embrittlement, he did say the hydrogen defuses from the steel after a few days, heating speeds up the diffusion… but I don’t mind waiting.

Even if it only removes the rust and patina and leave the bare metal I would considers it a success.

Electrolysis breaks the ionic bond between the base iron and the oxygen which are reacting to form rust, so you are left with bare steel, absolutely no rust (iron oxide, Fe2O3). There is a "scale" that forms on the metal in the process though, which is what was mentioned above as a black coating that had to be sanded off, though if you're a utilitarian person, that black scale may aid in preventing corrosion (or am I thinking of the wrong kind of scale?) if you can stand it. But it will remove any and all rust, even the rust under plating if there is any (while leaving the good plating alone), so there is no chance of rust creeping out from under the gold wash a year or two down the road when your nice scales are already secured to the blade.

Hydrogen embrittlement does where off without the need for tempering, and relatively fast for the thin strip of metal that is in question with a razor, so chipping really isn't a concern if you spare it from any use for a few days.

Bottom line is that it's a great way to insure that there is no rust left on the item. But you will have to sand it anyway to remove the scale, and you may not save any time since a waiting period is recommended.

Electrolysis should be a tool in your workshop, but not you only one and probably shouldn't be a first choice for all projects.

I have an old Hunter and Sons wedge in my homemade electrolysis setup right now. I will let you all know how it turns out.

How long will you let the process go?

Quick answer? Till the rust is gone. I anticipate a few hours, but I will check it after 1 hour and see how it cleans up,

Well as a quick update I've ordered all of the parts needed to make the box I am planning on using with a power supply that I already have that supplies 14VDC at up to 4amps (may be 6). The parts are in the mail and should be in in a week or two, coming from two different places it may take a little longer so I should have the box built by the end of the month.

My current plan is to use it to control the amperage and keep it down from about 25 to 36mA or so was what I calculated giving 1mA per square centimeter. It's basically just going to be a little box with an on/off switch, ammeter, I/O connections, a potentiometer to control the current flow and a fuse in case of a short. I'm just going to use my existing power supply for my RC cars so I don't have to worry about building or buying a new P/S.

I'll probably leave them in the solution for a few days for the person that asked a few posts ago. I'll check up on it though probably every so often, when I get up or get home from work, etc.. I'm also planning on trying with a few different razors, going to start with the worst-case one in the photo I posted which has yet to arrive but has been shipped. I'll try on some with lighter rusting too to see how well it works. Well just thought I'd throw an update here for those that may be wondering.

When I get everything together and run some tests I'll probably post them in a new thread detailing everything with pictures.

See someone else is trying as well :) Look forward to seeing some results maybe a little sooner from your experiment.

Jeez man, you are doing it the high tech (read that correctly) way. I just bought an el' cheapo 6/12v battery charger and dropped it into a plastic coffee can.

Way to make me look like a hillbilly!:w

I used the cheap batterey charger, and a plastic tub, and it was effective at removing rust, but did nothing for the pitting.

The vibratory tumbler is slower, but removes light pitting in the process.
From comparing the two methods, I would say the tumbler gives you more bang for your buck.

although electrolosys did work the results weren't any better than I would have gotten from 15 minutes on my buffing wheel.

the only benefit over buffing, is the ability to fully de-rustify without removing the scales. Some spots are damn hard to clean without disassembly.

Jimps that are covered by the scales, and the tang covered by the scales come to mind.

I will have to throw one of my shavers with a spot o rust into the bucket and see how it turns out. I do have some concerns about rust removal and the "line of sight" being covered by the scales, though. That's what experiments are for though, right??

For the truely rust obsessed you should use electrolosis to remove all visiages of rust then tumble to polish the blade.



to much work for me, lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

For the truely rust obsessed you should use electrolosis to remove all visiages of rust then tumble to polish the blade.



to much work for me, lol

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That's exactly what I am in the process of doing, actually. :hmmm:

Rust breeds more rust, you know.

Can anyone provide some guidance or a link for the 6/12V battery charger needed? Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joke1176

Jeez man, you are doing it the high tech (read that correctly) way. I just bought an el' cheapo 6/12v battery charger and dropped it into a plastic coffee can.

Way to make me look like a hillbilly!:w

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Didn't mean to :) I tend to overdo things a bit I think ... how'd it go with the 6/12v battery charger?