Designing Scales

Reading through the post on the restore section we have a lot of very talented scale makers. Looking through these as a newbie brings one major question to mind.
"What makes a good set of scales?"
I'm not talking the fit and finish, thats important but is also pretty easy to determine, this is directed more towards the design. I know that some would say "because I like them", ok but that doesnt provide a full answer.

So I would like to pose this question to any who have made scales or have an understanding of the process.
How do you design a good set of scales?.
How do you balance them or determine the balance point?
How do you decide on the shape and change the balance if necessary?
How do you decide on the material and how do you decide on the finish for that material?

Or, is there a Secret Society of Scale Makers that I need to acquire the password and the secret decoder ring for? :D

Thanks,
Bob

The secret society is unlisted but you call at 901 555-1212 to get your information.

[quote=CactusBob;204303]I know that some would say "because I like them", ok but that doesnt provide a full answer. That is the biggest thing for some people I really think. Usually a person won't comment if they don't like a design. I personally think this should change to provide constructive criticism.

So I would like to pose this question to any who have made scales or have an understanding of the process.
How do you design a good set of scales?. For me, it starts with a basic shape or template somehow. I think that the standard scales shapes are really a good outline to give you the general shape. From there you can add or take away. The general shape that you begin with obviously needs to be large enough (small enough too) to fit the particular blade.

How do you balance them or determine the balance point? Personally I don't think about this. I haven't made a set that doesn't balance well enough to my knowledge though. It is kind of common sense in a way. If it is too big, heavy, or lopsided for the blade, it won't balance. Balance point is also debatable. Some say it is the pivot point exactly, some prefer closer to the blade on the tang. Makes little difference in my opinion.

How do you decide on the shape and change the balance if necessary? It all comes from the imagination past the basic tried and true scale shape. Executing that image is also part of it. But "deciding" on the shape is up to the maker or eventual owner really.

How do you decide on the material and how do you decide on the finish for that material? Also personal. Different materals and finishes have different positives and negatives. You need to know your options and test them to decide what you like, why, and when. Material is mostly aesthetic although there are plenty of different materials that have certain selling points beyond the looks.

Or, is there a Secret Society of Scale Makers that I need to acquire the password and the secret decoder ring for? Yes...

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Originally Posted by CactusBob

Or, is there a Secret Society of Scale Makers that I need to acquire the password and the secret decoder ring for? :D

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Damn, he's on to us...

+1 on what Philadelph said.

As for balance, it comes down to common sense. Heavy blades are better with heavy scales, and light blades with light scales. For the most part, all the blades I've scaled that ended up with very good balance were by chance.

i like the way that philadelphia answered and so i will stick with the format.

How do you design a good set of scales?,
How do you decide on the shape?(i don't care or worry about the balance either)
start with the original scales if possible. this is a good shape to learn to start with and you already knows that the shape works for the blade. using that as a template, it is pretty easy to drow off of and adjust the shape and design. just play with it and see what you come up with. also i look at other scales others have made.

How do you decide on the material and how do you decide on the finish for that material?
i see the other woods that makers use and really like some. and i go to the wood store and see what they have. i go through phases on finishes. i may do a few sets with CA just to get better, then jump to poly for a few, just depends.

mostly, it is all about trial and error. i love the shape of my first set, however i drilled the back pin poorly and they look like crap. trial and error. just have fun and see what you come up with.:tu

vgod

So it seems that there is some common points to creating scales and a lot of it revolves around common sense. So does straight shaving for that matter, hmmm might be why theres' not more doing it.

So a good set of scales would need to
1) Be aesthetically pleasing for fit and finish.
2) Protect the blade when stored, I know a no-brainer
3) Be in proportion with the blade. A pencil thin set of scales on an 8/8ths W&B probably wont work well

And these would be open choices
1) Type of material, Corian, wood (most types should work, although it seems that harder woods might be better), Acrylic, Fimo, etc
2) Type of finish, Epoxy, CA, Oil, none, etc
3) Style from standard to exotic, such as Buddel and others create

So from what I'm reading scale making is 1 part common sense, 1 part effort and 2 parts trial and error. Any of this seem right?

BTW today I called 901 555-1212 to get my decoder ring and it was busy:confused: now it says its been disconnected or no longer in use:rant:
Are you tryin to tell me somethin :hmmm: :(
:roflmao:roflmao

Bob

When you get to the point where you like Maestro Livi you can just take a chunk of wood trace the shape of the scales freehand and cut them out on a bandsaw one piece and then finish with some sanders and by hand. He makes it look easy if you have ever seen his DVD.

[quote=Philadelph;204390]

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Originally Posted by CactusBob

I know that some would say "because I like them", ok but that doesnt provide a full answer. That is the biggest thing for some people I really think. Usually a person won't comment if they don't like a design. I personally think this should change to provide constructive criticism.

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I think this important in these forums. If Philadelphia had not spoken up about my Joseph Rodgers restore then I would be sitting with a blade with horizontal grind marks.

More to the topic, The biggest mistake I see with hand made scales is that some are to bulky and I prefer that they are thiner and streamlined.

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Originally Posted by CactusBob

BTW today I called 901 555-1212 to get my decoder ring and it was busy:confused: now it says its been disconnected or no longer in use:rant:
Are you tryin to tell me somethin :hmmm: :(
:roflmao

Bob

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Well, it wouldn't be secret anymore now would it? :shrug:

my first 2 sets were shaved down by hand from 1/4 to about 3/32 at the thickest part by hand with a file and sandpaper. good learning experience if you do not have a sander. my 3rd and 4th set were thicker, i think probably a little thicker than 1/8 all the way around. very squareish. one was a set for me, and one for a friend. there was a comment that they were coffee tables:roflmao:roflmao. to funny, but they are perfectly weighted and work well to myself and the friend.

i do not think that i will do any/many more in this style, but i saw a design form another scale maker and they worked for the blade, so i copied.

i like variety though. probably why my collection keeps growing.:w

vgod

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Originally Posted by Sancho

More to the topic, The biggest mistake I see with hand made scales is that some are to bulky and I prefer that they are thiner and streamlined.

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Originally Posted by CactusBob

So from what I'm reading scale making is 1 part common sense, 1 part effort and 2 parts trial and error. Any of this seem right?

BTW today I called 901 555-1212 to get my decoder ring and it was busy:confused: now it says its been disconnected or no longer in use:rant:
Are you tryin to tell me somethin

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I'd add at LEAST 1 part "artistic vision". I think that to be able to have an idea in your head and get that vision into your hands has a big part to play. I think some people are maybe more adept at this just because of maybe learning styles or whatever. Like remember when you were young you and 4 others might try to draw an apple from your memory and some would just look more like an apple than others?

P.S.- When Ken listed the number it had to be changed immediately.

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Originally Posted by Sancho

More to the topic, The biggest mistake I see with hand made scales is that some are to bulky and I prefer that they are thiner and streamlined.

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This is really a personal preference thing to a certain degree I would say. Like scales cannot be too thin OR too thick, but there is still a bit of room for your own tastes. How thick I like scales depends on whether they are flat or a curved profile as well as what blade they are going with, etc.

Due to too many people not being able to keep it a secret, I'm renouncing my membership in the International Brotherhood of Scalemakers. Of course now with that stated, I'd like to___________________________:nono:

We're sorry, but Yul has been, shall we say, made "unavailable" for the next few moments.

I have been asked to read the following statement, but I'll save it for later. Ow! What? Again with the bat?

Anyway- Make sure you have the proper tools. Life is SOOOOO much easier with, than without. My first set of scales was cut out with a jigsaw, drilled out the pin holes with a Makita, then hand rasped, sanded and finished. My second set was cut out with a coping saw, but sanded down on a bench sander. My third set was cut out with a scroll saw, drilled on a drill press and sanded on a bench sander. My scales are now being made fast and furious! Well, not really, but the proper tools made my life and artistic senses so much easier. Hot Tip!:nj Delta tools- the cheap shop tools- have been bought out by Black and Decker. I picked up my discontinued Delta scroll saw for $88!

The only thing I could possibly add to the already detailed posts given here, is that, you can use the wedge design and material to adjust overall razor balance....... if needed!!!!

The only thing I'll disagree with is about the criticism. If I'm making the scales for you, or if I ask you, specifically for your thoughts on a certain design, fine. I'm prepared for whatever you have to say. If not, keep your mouth shut. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and what I like, you may not, and vice versa (gotta love the run-on sentence :D) Unasked-for criticism is rude and stupid. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to know what you think, or considers your opinion as important as you do. This wasn't meant to pick on anyone. Just my philosophy on it. (Obviously this only applies to a person's craftsmanship, and their attempts to honestly add to the hobby we all love...politics in the off-topic is a totally different manner :D). Good things should be shouted from the mountaintop...negative things should be handled quietly.

A long time ago, I read a tale from one of my knifemaking heroes, Ed Fowler, and he told the story of meeting a couple of his knifemaking heroes and asking their opinion of his knives (he was a new maker at the time). One of his heroes dismissed him, and criticized them mercilessly. Another (Bill Moran) took his time and found some good things to say, even though (by Ed's own admission) they were pretty rough. This good constructive criticism laid the foundation for his interaction with other knifemakers, and didn't kill his spirit. It made him want to improve, instead of getting defensive and trying to defend the undefensible, causing hard feelings and possible lost friendships. And Ed is, today, recognized as one of the premier makers of the "high performance" knife. (And I've heard amazing things about some of Ed's knives...one customer claimed one of his cleaned 132 harvested animals in a processing plant without sharpening)

Again, this only applies if you've been asked for your opinion, or if you've actually spent your money to play. Certain discussions require opinions and whatnot, but too many guys who've never made anything feel free to criticize another's work. Didn't your momma ever tell you that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything? Or is that just a Southern thing? I think most guys grasp this concept, but there are always a few squeaky wheels.

I think we're all guilty of saying things we regret in a flash of pique or anger, but as a group of supposed gentlemen, we should earnestly try to limit it.

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

This good constructive criticism laid the foundation for his interaction with other knifemakers, and didn't kill his spirit. It made him want to improve, instead of getting defensive and trying to defend the undefensible, causing hard feelings and possible lost friendships.

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This is exactly what was meant by anyone advocating constructive criticism here. I certainly meant it this way even if I didn't describe it in the best way. What I really should have said was when someone makes scales for the first time and posts them asking "what do you think", we should be adding things like "why don't you try ... to make that spacer fit a little better?" rather than just saying how great they look. No one ever advocated saying "I think those suck".

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

This is exactly what was meant by anyone advocating constructive criticism here. I certainly meant it this way even if I didn't describe it in the best way. What I really should have said was when someone makes scales for the first time and posts them asking "what do you think", we should be adding things like "why don't you try ... to make that spacer fit a little better?" rather than just saying how great they look. No one ever advocated saying "I think those suck".

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Very good points, but notice in the example of the story that the author actually asked for someone's opinion, rather than it being "volunteered". Very nice discussion, IMO, though.

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

The only thing I'll disagree with is about the criticism. If I'm making the scales for you, or if I ask you, specifically for your thoughts on a certain design, fine. I'm prepared for whatever you have to say. If not, keep your mouth shut. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and what I like, you may not, and vice versa (gotta love the run-on sentence :D) Unasked-for criticism is rude and stupid. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to know what you think, or considers your opinion as important as you do. This wasn't meant to pick on anyone. Just my philosophy on it. (Obviously this only applies to a person's craftsmanship, and their attempts to honestly add to the hobby we all love...politics in the off-topic is a totally different manner :D). Good things should be shouted from the mountaintop...negative things should be handled quietly.

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<scratch Chandler customer razor off my dream list... maybe?>

Joe, I respectfully submit a point of view which may make unsolicited advice or criticism more acceptable.

UNSOLICITED ADVICE OFTEN REVEALS MORE ABOUT THE SPEAKER THAN THE RECIPIENT.

Sorry, I just had to shout that. I've been noticing more and more that this is a truism in my life, and it makes it *much* easier to either slough off negativity, or to take constructive criticism in the intended light.

So if I say I don't care for the rounded finger cutout in the tang/shoulder transition of one of your recent custom razors shown here recently, it simply reveals my preference, it is not a judgement of your work as a whole. <Also note that I wrote that I love the workmanship and the rest of the design, I really did.>

That, and if you post photos of your work online, that is tantamount to an open invitation for comments and, perhaps, criticism. Just remember, it's not you, it's us :)

Can I please keep you on my fantasy razor list now? :)