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I've read a number of tricks that folks here use to save the spine while grinding chips out, like taping the spine. However, if you have to remove, say, 1/16" from the edge, doesn't trying to save the spine alter the geometry of the razor? It maintains the aesthetic appearance of the razor, granted, but the whole razor will be at a more obtuse angle than formerly. Is this really a good idea?
Yes the geometry is altered, and you can find experiments and results and ideas why it's a good or bad idea to tape a razor's spine for honing in this recent thread http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ng+spine+bevel
There have been several previous forum discussions about this too. I don't tape the spine unless I know the razor's spine has been taped previously
The only goal is to have a shaving sharp edge. It really is of no material consequence if the included angle is 14 degrees,-15 or 17. So far there has been absolutely no one who has shown that the exact same angle is maintained by not using tape. To maintain the exact same angle the wear on the spine would have to be exactly proportionate to the wear on the width of the blade and I doubt that happens. Also, some guys have more force on the spine than the edge while honing and vice versa and that may vary while the same person is honing the same razor.
It is my guess that the angle becomes constantly steeper with honing irregardless if you use tape or not.
This argument has been going on for several years with no resolution.
Just make a choice and stick with it.
Well said! What a refreshing view on the topic.
+ 1Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Best concise discussion on this subject that I have seen!
In addition, most folks that I know are not capable of holding the razor within a one degree tolerance while shaving the face. Since you ideally hold the blade about 30 degrees off the face, the angle of the edge to the spine varying a degree or so is truly of little consequence.
i had to make a choice today. i have a dubl duck dwarf that had a frown and i needed to take about 1/32 off the toe and heel. no question, taped the spine. once i got the frown out, then i took tape off and honed as usual. i will shave with it tomorrow and see how it did.
if you tape you create a new bevel. getting rid of that i do not think takes any more time or metal then honing out a chip. i saw a thread once that asked do you want a pretty razor, or a great shaving razor? with some, you just have to make a choice. i agree with randydance, do it, or not. make the choice.
vgod
btw, the duck dwarf is in the razor club thread with a #1 special and a decent goldedge.
The edge of a blade will be sharp within a known range.
Most razors are made with the angle being on the shallow side of this range, to compensate for wear.
Frankly there are too many variables to say it will or will not make a difference.
Have you considered that the difference in the thickness of the blade and spine will effect the hardness, and in doing so the rate of wear on each?
pressure applied while honing, frequency of honing, there simply are too many variables...
IMHO tape on the spine is a very minor factor in determining the life of a razor.
I've got a razor that has an angle of 24 degrees that shaves just fine. The angle isn't as critical as we sometimes think.
Edit: I also tape the spine when honing this razor, so its honing angle is actually a bit steeper than 24 deg.
Hello Mike,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff
The hardness of a blade is not affected by the angle. Not at all. The hardness is determined by the type of steel, the heat treatment and the tempering.
I am pointing this out for the benefit of the new guys, not as a jab at you.
Having my first cup of coffee for the day,:)
Sorry, I have to totally disagree with that. I use tape for all honing and with patience and persistence I have been able to make an edge so sharp it was not a pleasant experience. I had to use a super light touch or else it cut me. I did this with 3 razors, a 6/8 W&B, a 9/16 Morely and a 4/8 Wedge brand several years ago. I do not make them that sharp anymore for anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by vgod
I will tape if the razor will not take an edge. I've rescued a whole lot of very old razors that would no longer hone up for guys. I prefer not to tape. If boils down to a usable razor or not, I'll tape it.
I am still a relative newbie but I have been acquiring a lot of razors and hones and using them. I decided to follow Randy's lead and tape all razors. This way I don't have to try and remember which I taped and which I didn't. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I have been getting a variety of vintage and new razors shaving sharp.
by pretty vs great shave, i mean that some razors without tape, you are going to have significant hone wear. i have an old wedge that has wicked hone wear after trying to get an edge on it. i think that it is personality, but others may look and say that i have ruined it. i am not saying you cannot get shave ready without sacrificing the spine, but sometimes this is the case if you don't want to tape.
also, i am sure part of my hone wear was due to my inexperience at the time.
vgod
Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Sorry let me clarify what I was trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
I was questioning whether the thicker steel at the spine would be harder or softer because of it's thickness, and heat transferrance durring the tempering.
If the spine isn't cooled fast enough in the hardening, or if it is kept at temperature longer than the edge in tempering there would be a small difference, and the potential for a greater difference is there especially when these are manufactured in large batches.
Some makers might even soften the spine to give the razor more strength.:shrug:
Here's another reason to tape. I usually apply one layer of tape, and it makes very little difference in the geometry.Quote:
I will tape if the razor will not take an edge. I've rescued a whole lot of very old razors that would no longer hone up for guys. I prefer not to tape. If boils down to a usable razor or not, I'll tape it.
on occasion i will add additional layers of tape if a razor won't take an edge. This has saved several razors from going to my junk pile. The added angle allows the hone to hit the parts of the razor that are being tempermental, and as the tape wears down, it comes back to the steeper angle.
Also a poorly ground spine wll show wide spots if you don't tape. The tape can be beneficial in several ways when you are working with a poorly ground razor.