Printable View
I have been re-pinning razors for a short time and have noticed that some holes in the blades are way bigger than 1/16". I have gotten some 3/32" tubing which has a 1/16" hole in it and inserting that in the blade and cutting to length. Is that the wrong thing to do? I like the way the razors come out but there has to be a reason that the holes are bigger, seems sloppy to me though.:confused:
Thanks,
Richard
My story that I am sticking too, is wear from thousands of openings and closings, and honings and stroppings....:)
Yes, BTW sleeving the oversize holes works just fine....
Gotta throw this in here... I'm not sure exactly but I've heard that they used to punch out the pivot hole from the hot steel rather than drilling it like we might do today. This made for uneven, oddly shaped, larger diameter holes since punching out steel wouldn't exactly have been precise. I don't think opening a razor wears the hardened steel more than it does the soft pin... :w
Let me add that the first electric drill was founded in 1889. I'm not SURE about the punch thing, but as I said, I've only heard that. Makes sense though or maybe in combination with something else. Without an electric drill in 1850, it seems to me that hand drilling a hole in the steel would have been an awful lot of work for all the razors being produced on a daily basis.
Yeah, I've heard the punching theory somewhere too.
Not wrong at all to use a bushing but you can also use larger rod & washers if you prefer.
70 - 80 thou rod & #1 washers work. You can bulls eye with 2's & 4's as well. Gives it a chunky look but that's ok on a big wedge.
Not a restorer (yet- at least until my WB blade arrives), but my humble guess beyond what these esteemed gents suggested is that they may have purposely made the holes and pins a bit larger on heavier razors for extra stability and dependability.
Can you explain your theory please?Quote:
Originally Posted by kenneyty
Well- I make toys for a living. We often use steel pins on our prototypes for hinge pins, etc. Even with carbide steel pins, and springs light enough for a toy, I've seen pins get bent when a toy gets dropped, or the holes bored for them crack. Sometimes when space is limited for the length of a pin, the older model makers I've noticed will increase the diameter of the pin- maybe it's so more surface area of the pin can be in touch with the holes (gluing surface of friction fit).
Make sense?
That's my theory anyway, but the other guys' idea sound much more educated.
I'm working on a G. Wostenholm that is not round holed. The true diameter through the center is smaller than what it appears from the out sides. it looks punched.
I decided to fill the hole with peened copper wire. The heads of the rivet will hopefully act as built in bushings :shrug: I filed 'em down until it's just a whisker more than flush.
now if i can manage to re-drill the hole in just the right spot :thinking:
true to form I will find the hard way to do it:)
One good argument agains the 'wear and tear' theory is that the holes are often a bit crooked. If it was wear, both sides of the holes would be worn so that any irregularities would be worn away .
Another argument is that brass is a lot softer than steel. The pins would wear away a long time before the steel would be affected. Since the brass is still the same diameter in the middle as in the places where it sticks through the scales, I think it is safe to say that wear is not the cause.
I've seen this issue with severall older sheffield blades. The irregularity of the holes makes me think the hot punch theory is correct. Mechanical drilling was certainly possible in the 1800s But I once talked with a blacksmith, and he told me that he tried to hot punch whenever possible, because it was much faster than drilling. If this is still tru today, I suspect it was doubly true in the 1800 when drilling would be mechanical.
I don't think it is wear. They are all roughly the same size. One does not have to go to the wedges to find the problem just some of the 1/4 grind stuff or one with a little thicker back. The tubing works well, I just cut it a little longer then tap a little to expand it in the hole and file the excess. I was just wondering if it made any difference in the way the razor folded close. Just curious.
Thanks guys,
R
I agree - the oversized and irregular pivot holes I've seen in my restorations have never been symetrical, and I would suspect that the high carbon steel would not wear with a brass pin (brass being the much softer metal and would itself wear instead of the steel).
I suspect that this is especially true in large wedges, since there is more metal to punch through at once, so the chances of an irregular hole is larger, in my estimation.
Mark
Another factor is that the holes had to be drilled before heat treatment.
But if you have just forged a blade, you have to either
1) wait for the blade to gently cool off from the correct temperature so that it is anealed, then drill the hole with a mechanical drill
2) take a punch and make a hole while the blade is still red hot.
2 would seem the logical choice.
We were discussing this in chat also, and one thing that puts me more toward the wear side, I am not saying the hot punch method was not used here, but I am saying that much of the oblong shape and oversize part is from wear.. The brass will wear on that steel, look at the side of the tangs and the wear from the brass bearing washers, also especially on the bigger older wedges there is some back and forth movement there also...
Sp perhaps there are actually two things at work here, the punched hole not being quite as tight nor exact, as a drilled hole allows for more play, which in turn allows for more wear????????:hmmm:
But I've never seen significant wear on the brass pins. And they should wear more than the steel, no?
My vote - hot punch. The deformed (oval hole with long axis parallel to the length of the shank?) I bet comes from the smith hammering out the displaced material from punching the hole.
Glen, every Tuesday night I operate a large newsprint press (offset rotation). The rolls of newspaper weight over 500 kg. They're mounted on a steel rod that turns is a brass bushing at very high speed. After 30 years of heavy use, there's still no sign of wear on the steel rods, but the bushings have been replaced several times.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Just another data point.
Bart.
There are notes on the Sheffield Uni site concerning the work of the last razor-grinder in Sheffield, UK, a Mr Bill Hukin. I have posted the link before - the part apart the hole is here. They refer to it as the "dot hole." It appears that it was punched-in by the forger at that time.
Regards,
Neil
Great link! Nice to see this stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Thanks Oz! Another reference to the hole being pierced may be found here. See the 5th paragraph beginning "...The variety of materials..." It is based on the 1911 version of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, and also tells of the various polishing operations.
Regards,
Neil
Speaking of cutlers, there's an eBay seller called razorman2 sells this DVD of a cutler from Ed Vogel's.
Shows him sharpening nail clippers, shears etc & finally a razor. Worth buying just to see the huge wheels he uses.
The link should be good for a few weeks.
Grind hone strop your CUT THROAT straight razor DVD - eBay Straight Razors, Shaving, Vanity, Perfume Shaving, Collectibles. (end time 13-Feb-09 10:02:52 AEDST)
The older razors were, indeed, hot-punched. The reasons the holes are larger was due to the size of the punch required. Too thin and it wouldn't work. The heat would ruin it to quickly and it simply wouldn't be tough enough, so the smallest hole they could get with this method was about 3/32. That method is still used by forgers for horseshoes. Drilling steel wasn't a practical option at the time. As manufacturing got more sophisticated, drilling became the preferred method and most solingen razors had their pivot holes drilled for exact placement and consistency in size and angle.