Spoke with Norton today.

Being relatively new to this expensive hobby of shaving with a straight razor, I did quite a bit of research and monitoring of the forum before I jumped in. To embark upon this adventure, I acquired several nice Dovo Rasors, a few junkers from ebay for honing practice, strop and a Norton 4k/8k combination stone. A small investment, indeed. Well, I thought I was ready to go and that I had all I needed to learn proper honing, stroping and general maintenance of my razors, but I soon learned from the folks on the forum that before I could/should use my new Norton stone, it needed to be flattened or lapped. These stones are not cheap and it bothered me tremendously that in order to use the stone, I had to purchase another stone to prepare the combination stone to do what it was intended to do in the first place. Consequently, I fired off an email to Norton Customer Service expressing my disappointment and asked a representative to reply. As a result, I got a personal telephone call this morning from Norton and was told that my stone was good to go and the idea of flattening the stone before its first use was just over kill. According to the customer service representative that I spoke with these stones are put on a machine before shipment to retailers that flattens each side of the stone and assures a flat even honing surface. That was good news to me and I should be feeling better, but I am still wondering why if that is true, the general consensus of the forum members is the opposite of what I was told. Your thoughts?

All I know is that when I went to flatten my stone, I put the pencil grid on it, and went to work. There were areas that did not get clean as quickly as others, meaning there is some degree of unflattness (I'm pretty sure that is not a word). Now, does that mean that it is not flat enough? It would seem to be the case, considering the degree of precision we try to hone our blades to. For a chisel? No problem, I think. Most camping knives? I think same answer. Straight razor? I think you need to flatten your hone.

I completely disagree with what you were told. When I bought my norton, I used a pencil to draw a grid on the stone. In this way you can see the stone being flattened when you lap it. As I proceeded, I could see the pencil marks come off and NO , the stone was NOT flat coming out of the box. This is the only way i know of to check this and in my experience it was not flat new. I'm sorry to bring you this news , but don't want you to be more disappointed later.

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Originally Posted by grags

As a result, I got a personal telephone call this morning from Norton and was told that my stone was good to go and the idea of flattening the stone before its first use was just over kill.

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I have a feeling Norton is right. But the way I hone, I need overkill!

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

All I know is that when I went to flatten my stone, I put the pencil grid on it, and went to work. There were areas that did not get clean as quickly as others, meaning there is some degree of unflattness (I'm pretty sure that is not a word). Now, does that mean that it is not flat enough? It would seem to be the case, considering the degree of precision we try to hone our blades to. For a chisel? No problem, I think. Most camping knives? I think same answer. Straight razor? I think you need to flatten your hone.

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Lol, you've never been on a woodworking forum or a knife forum have ya? ;)

Those guys are just as fanatical as we are.

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Originally Posted by Ben325e

Lol, you've never been on a woodworking forum or a knife forum have ya? ;)

Those guys are just as fanatical as we are.

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Oh, I've spent a good amount of time and a small fortune at Bladeforums.
Note I said CAMPING knives...now, my art knives, yeah....those edges are mirrors.

No, never talked to woodworkers about their chisels.

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Originally Posted by grags

As a result, I got a personal telephone call this morning from Norton and was told that my stone was good to go and the idea of flattening the stone before its first use was just over kill.

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I AGREE. Grags, you will be fine. Just use your hones until they do in fact NEED lapping. I never lapped my Nortons for a while when I first got them and I survived. You will find many people here going to great lengths to make sure that overkill is exactly what they get (myself included). When lapping I have never seen a stone where all pencil grid marks were taken away immediately and evenly. It's the nature of lapping. The layer of water between stones forms a kind of viscous barrier because of the 'stiction' between two flat stones. Doesn't mean the hone isn't flat to .00001" but some lines might disappear slightly after others.

Besides, evidence seems to show that many barbers used heavily dished stones to lap and still got the job done. You'll never convince me that a BETTER edge can be had from a Norton that is guaranteed within .0000whatever" as opposed to a Norton straight from the factory (without a freak problem of course). That being said– I currently do use a DMT plate to lap my hones during every honing session, but I wouldn't be scared to hone if I didn't have one.

One of the things that I learned in my working career that surprised me the most is that the company that makes a product knows very little about how it is actually used because they have little direct contact with end-users. The dealers who sell the product usually know more, but if you really want to know the actual truth about a product, you have to talk to the people who use it every day.

This is why products go out into the market and fail.

It's gotta be flat. An uneven honing surface can prevent you from making even contact along the blade's length. This can result in an uneven bevel (if you're setting one) or uneven sharpness along the length. Yeah, an X stroke helps with this, but if your stone is truly not flat, it's still gonna happen. For best results with minimum frustration, your hone needs to be *flat*.

I agree that alot of stone manufacturers feel the need to squeeze every drop of cash out of your pocket by making you buy a seperate flattening stone, but Norton is not alone in this. Even the Shapton ceramic on glass come out of the box needing to be lapped. And you think the Norton lapping stone is pricey? Try over 3 bills for the Shapton model. The most expensive thing they sell is their stupid lapping plate!

My Shaptons needed a fair amount of lapping straight out of the box. Besides flattening the stone, the lapping did a good job of smoothing out the surface, which was surprisingly rough.

Anyway... my advice: bite the bullet, and spend the money on a lapping solution of your choice. Personally, I'd buy a DMT8C, since you can at least use it for other things besides lapping.

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

Besides, evidence seems to show that many barbers used heavily dished stones to lap and still got the job done.

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I've recently acquired a few coticules that were owned by long time barbers in the NY/NJ area. Talking thirty year barbers that retired twenty years ago. Their sons are selling stuff on ebay now. I was amazed at how dished these stones were. Here in this photo is one of them and it took me an hour....... not a typo........ an hour to get it to where you see it.

The second photo shows the remainder of the pencil grid. Using a straight edge I could see that I would have had to have removed another 1/8" to get the little section in conformity with the rest so I opted to hone around that area.

Also the photo of a long Swaty I got that was NOS in the box. I have three Swatys. None were flat when I got them. So the suspicion that many of the old barbers honed on dished stones has been confirmed for me. The straight edge is a Starrett 304 and is a professional tool. So I don't know how sharp their razors were getting but at least the fellows who used these were honing on stones that were not flat.

That said, I get better results when I flatten my hones on a regular basis. If I had spent the $$ on the 4/8 combo and the other stuff I would feel the need for the DMT D8C or X to get them flat and keep them that way.:gl:

Again I'll say this: It is easier to hone on a definitively flat hone, but completely unnecessary. That being said, I doubt Grags' new hone/s are anything but relatively flat. Besides, a rolling X stroke can solve pretty much any honing dilemma if you learn how to do it. Grags won't need to even do that. We are not talking dished hones that Norton sends out. If that were the case, Norton's products would indeed fail in the market like Chimensch said... but they never have. If your Norton looks flat, then just use it. If not, call Norton back.

I have to agree that hones don't need to be totally flat to get good edges. I have never lapped my King 1K, my BBW came to me unlapped and I use it as is, and I didn't bother trying to lap my Spyderco med/fine pocket hones. I "lapped" my Swaty by rubbing it against another unlapped barber hone (sure, I used the pencil grid technique, but who knows if either stone ended up flat). Actually, the only stone I have that is lapped is my coticule.

Maybe I'd get better edges faster if I lapped my stones every time before I used them, but I feel I get great edges as is. I've also never (well, only once) had complaints from people I've sold razors to here on SRP, and JoeD shaved with and quite liked one of my razors.

As Philadelph said, if your hones are close to flat (which I believe many are from the factory), I think you will be ok. Indeed, if have found this to apply for me.

Can you hone a razor with an unlapped stone? Yup, you sure can.
Will it hone better if you lap it? Yes it will.
Is it necessary to lap you hone before every honing session? Nope.
Will it hone better if you do? Yes it will.

Try it for yourself for a hundred or so razors and 20-30 hones and then decide.

BTW, be sure to round the edges of that Norton or any hone. The edges can cause micro-nicks on the edge.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Can you hone a razor with an unlapped stone? Yup, you sure can.
Will it hone better if you lap it? Yes it will.
Is it necessary to lap you hone before every honing session? Nope.
Will it hone better if you do? Yes it will.

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Just to elaborate– instead of the word 'better' above, I would replace it with the word 'easier'. The same results can be achieved either way.

If you had a progression with each stone of randomly and radically different degrees of flatness, the end result might feel sharp, but the end result would always be in question, the time and effort greatly magnified.

Different purposes, different beards, techniques, expectations may give rise to opinions of what is an acceptable tolerance for flatness. However, when the tolerances decrease edges progress faster and more consistantly. Is that better or simply easier- I do not know.

As a point of reference a "dished" stone will have higher edges and lower center just like a dish or bowl. When using a pencil grid you will be removing the lines on the edges first as the high spots wear away leaving lines in the center until it is truly flat.

Most factory 'flat" stones i encountered have been high in the center with the edges being lower (as shown in the photos previously posted). When lapping these the lines wear off the center first as it is higher then the edges as they approach being flat.

Typically (not always) long stones tend to be dished, end to end as the user stops short of the ends and they tend not to wear, hence remain higher. On shorter stones I usually see guys hone right off the end of the stone. This wears the ends faster and leaving a crown, end to end in the middle. Now I am talking old time, home based knife and tool sharpeners here, not straight razor guys. These are the kinds of stones I find on ebay....grandpas old sharpening stone that did everything from a straight razor, to a pocket knife, to a mower blade to the Thanksgiving carving knife. In the pattern shop of our foundy the guys all use stones and they seem to follow this same pattern depending if short or long.

Tony

I absolutely agree that in the old days many people including barbers used very out of flat hones...In fact I can most likely prove it, with a quick e-bay search, I am sure I can find plenty of old razors right now, that have frowns , toe wear , heel wear, wavy wear and just about every wear you can imagine...

You will notice a trend with this hobby, when you are beginning you will want to eliminate as many variables as possible from everything you do, from making lather to honing razors, try and start with everything as uniform as possible...

Norton's are actually rather easy to flatten, a piece of 400 grit wet-or-dry and a flat piece of just about anything will do the trick...
Wanna go the whole route get a piece of 1000 grit paper too...

I honed my razors on my Norton 4k/8k for about 5 months before I ever lapped it. I was able to achieve very good edges on my blades, comparable to my lapped Norton, but I began to see some indications of uneven hone wear. So, I decided to spend the $25 or so on a lapping stone, lapped my Norton, and it solved my uneven hone wear problem.

Once I knew that straight shaving was going to be something that I would likely do for the rest of my life, and began buying more expensive razors, buying a lapping stone was a no brainer.