To Blue, or not to Blue?

Greetings everyone,

I am currently in the process of restoring a Joseph Rodgers & Sons straight razor. This will be my most complete restoration to date, and I'm trying to keep it as original as possible.

This is what it looked like when I got it from eBay. It appears (to me anyway) that the blade was blued at the factory.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...estored-01.jpg

After quite a bit of work, I got the blade cleaned up so it looked like this;

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...olished-01.jpg

Because the original was blued, I tried to blue the blade again using Birchwood Casey's Perma Blue. I've never really used the stuff before, and I'm not sure I like the results. It comes out shiny and the color is nice, except that it is very blotchy.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s-blued-01.jpg

My question for everyone is, would you leave the blade this way, or just give up an polish off all of the bluing? I found out the MAAS will take it off, so I don't think it will take a lot of effort to repolish it.

If anyone has used the Perma Blue before and had better results, I'd love to know how you did it. This is what the bottle looks like. I followed the directions, but they are not very extensive.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...Perma-Blue.jpg

Wow- great cleanup job. I'm in the middle of doing some sanding right now, and that renews my motivation.
I think it looked great with the mirror finish, and agree the blue looks blotchy. My vote is polish that bad boy up!

I agree - after such an immense clean up with such excellent results, I probably would not blue it.

However, if you want to blue it I have found by far the best thing to use is the gel, not the liquid. You get a much more even and far less blotchy result that way.

Here is a link to a thread where I posted a pic of the bluing gel.

James.

Thanks guys. Jimbo, I may give that cream stuff a try before I totally give up. You razor did come out a much more uniform color.

First, that is a beautiful cleanup of a nice size wedge, you should just sell/trade it to me!!! :D

that said, if you are going to blue it I'd recommend doing a real rust blue. I'm sure you can do a google and get the info. much better so I'll just give the quick and dirty.

Rust bluing is what was done back then, on guns and if this was blued I'm sure on this as well. you use a rust accelerant, (Gun Goddess from Half Moon Rifles is the very best, pm me if you want the contact). it causes the surface to rust, ferrous oxide. you then boil this in clean water, which will convert it chemically to ferric oxide. that's the dark stuff, you repeat this until you aren't getting rust anymore. what you have done is effectively rusted and converted every expose grain of metal. this is a very long wearing, beautiful finish.

actually as much as you polished it you would have trouble getting it to "bite". usually you'd want to go to a 320grit., this gives that "eggshell" finish you see on high end rust blued rifles. it is very moisture resistant of course. and it gives that dark bluish almost black color.

I did one floorplate, and messed up on 2nd coat (did not degrees pan, very very very bad news). but the color was excellent. I just dropped a blade in the tumbler that I am going to blue the tang of when it is done.

oh, and this will not come off with MAAS, so don't do it unless you're sure!

Red

My two cents which is only worth about one cent says leave that shiny blade alone. A blade that shiny is beautiful and should not be messed with. I think it would be cool to blue the entire tang though. Sort of a two tone look.

I have used the Birchwood Casey product on a carbon steel knife blade. It looked good until I started using the knife. It would wear off just from contact with the sheath. This type of bluing on a razor (even if you got a good even coat) would soon wear off from stropping and day to day handling. This product is not as tough as a professional hot blue. It is mainly a quick cheap fix for people to touch up scuffed bluing on their firearms. You could have it professionally blued by a gunsmith, but that might subject the blade to high temperatures in the process and may affect the temper since these blade are so thin.

I think that Red is right. If you believe the razor was originally blued I would go with a similar technique that was used during the time of the razor's production. I don't know, maybe a knowledgeable collector could chime in and confirm that the original razor was blued.

I think the job that you did on the blade before the Birchwood Casey application looks excellent. If you do decide to go with a more permanent rust blue, I would practice a couple of times on some carbon steel before doing your razor.

Chris, you did a nice job on the cleanup. Oso has identified the problem with the thin oxides. They will wear away with use. However, they are also easier to touch up and less of a hassle if you can live with the touched up look.

To get the simple chemical "cold blues" to work you need to make sure that the blade is completely clean. This is true of any of these processes at some point. You'll need to use a solvent of some kind to get even your fingerprints off before putting any chemistry to work. Electronic cleaner, brake cleaner, even one of the orange or yellow degreasers with a water flush will do. But handle the blade with a paper towel afterward and until you've got the finish the way you want it.

Another trick to help the cold blues work better is to warm up the blade a little. Not much, just a little and the phosphoric acid will cut a little better. You're really only putting down a very superficial layer of oxide to occupy all the spots where oxygen could find a place to start the rust process.

There are hot chemical methods, one runs at about 140C/292 F. Your blade would be safe in something like that but you will need to take protective precautions as it's kinda caustic soda (all acids and bases are nastier at a higher temperature). That's how a good portion of the blademakers are getting the wild colors they do and not ruining the hardness of their blades.

A true hot blue is not the best for a razor or knife. We're talking temperatures in the 500-700 F range in hot salts and for the simple steels that most razors represent that means the hardness is seriously compromised. It's a gorgeous finish though.

Personally, I'm a big fan of rust browns and blues and I could easily get my mind around those finishes, but the surface is by necessity a little rougher than a true polished surface. Won't hurt the blade any and taping the spine for honing would be needed to not leave a bright line there.

First off, great job.

Secondly, I've used the perma blue for knives and gun parts before. If you want to give it another go before trying the "real" blueing you need to make efforts to do 2 things.

-Make sure the finish is COMPLETELY uniform (scratch patterns/polishing/whatever...looks like you got this part down)
-Make sure the surface is CLEAN. NO OIL, no residue, no nothing. I can't remember what I was suggested to use but acetone (NOT fingernail polish) worked well for me last time. I'm always amazed how oily my hands are when I start messing with things that do not tolerate oil at all. If you're like me, the blades aren't exactly worked on in a sterile environment anyways. Go clean that puppy, break out some latex gloves if you've got 'em.

To me it looks like you didn't get the blade clean of oils/residues. You can leave it on longer or wipe off and put a second coat on and it'll darken up some as well. SOMETIMES it evens out as it darkens up.

Or just find a local gunsmith and pay him to mess with it and get it done right:D

Thanks for the info guys. I wore Nitrile gloves and used acetone to clean the blade, but I guess I didn't do a good enough job. I looked at the Birchwood Casey website and they say to degrease the blade (with their degreaser of course), so maybe that's needed in addition to the acetone.

Big Red, the rust bluing you described sounds like the ticket, but I think it's more work than I want to tackle at this time.

Oso and Mike Blue, thanks for the insights on Bichwood Casey's Perma Blue and the other types of bluing. I guess it's not really worth trying to blue this blade again, unless I was going to go with something like Big Red described.

Therefore, I guess I will be repolishing the blade to a bright finish. Then I can assemble, sharpen, and start shaving with my new blade (finally).

Thanks all!

Polish this one and blue a different blade.

I re-polished the blade, taking it to 1500 grit and then buffing it. I think it came out pretty well.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...estored-07.jpg

That is a great looking blade! I would save the bluing experiment for a blade that has stubborn stains.

that is beautfiul.

Mike, not to disagree, but the one you're talking about at about 280 or just over is the one called a hot blue now.. the best I believe is formulated from ammonium nitrate and lye. My friend and gunsmith died recently, we at one point discussed me buying his custom blueing tanks and getting into it. the problem is that in California getting the ingredients in the right quality and quantity would be hard. the high temp blues, like color case, charcoal, oil, nitre would definitely warp the blade.

too bad nobody is going carbonia bluing any more like S&W used to. wouldn't work on razors either, but man it looks fantastic on those old guns.

Red

Okay, this is an admitted hi-jack...kinda (since it still pertains to "blueing" a razor and finding a way to make it look good)

First off, Ya dun good...looks great!

Big Red, or any other gun-nuts out there:
I've heard somewhere that the older SKB autos are not technically a "blueing" but something called black chrome. I know they look fantastic, and as my dad has one, they hold up very well to corrosion. They had to stop using the process because it was too toxic to the workers. Does ANYONE still use this process and does it help us get around the temp. issues of a traditional hot-blueing.

Also, would Walter Birdsong's Black-T finish clog up our finer grit stones? Woudn't be shiny but would be the ulitimate in corrosion resistance and the matte blade with mirror bevel might be quite striking.:shrug: (I'm thinking some clear or colored acrylic scales.)