Good Idea/Bad Idea?

I am new to the world of straights, but I am thinking of cheap long term products to make my cheap newbie razors fun and special. Besides Maas and a polish cloth, I think the easiest way to do this is new scales. I was looking at different woods and plastics and thinking what could I do, when I realised, what if I made something truly unique, something from my homeland in Africa? And I thought of malacite or tiger's eye scales. The rough is not so cheap: 25 or so bucks for a rock large and nice enough. The work: long and tedious. But Since this is long term and would really be unique, it's worth the time and effort to me. If it works. My question to the pro's is, is it feasible scale material? I understand that typically there is some flex to scales, to hold the blade open etc, does it matter that they are rigid? Instead of a wedge could a flat piece be used? Could thin rubber washers be used at the pin to hold the blade open? Any advice, cautions, doubts etc would be welcome. I don't want to throw hours of work into something not feasible. (btw, malacite is a green crystalling looking rock that is cut and polished into lots of different shapes with great effect, so is tiger's eye and it's blue variant, hawk's eye)

Short answer: no.

Long answer:
First, your right about flexibility of scales. Most scales flex, I don't know why, but it probably has something to do with holding the metal blade in place and not wanting the scales to shatter or the scales to damage the blade. That said, wapis and the SS dovo have metal scales. Theres always exceptions.

But thats not the real reason minerals would make a poor choice of scale material. The big reason is balance. Bill Ellis posted a nice post about this on the other forum. But think about it, Tigerseye and Malachite are rather heavy for their volume, dense. Ever shaved with a razor with SS scales? Its not as easy as shaving with a razor with plastic ones. Same will be true with scales made from minerals.

The final reason is fragility. Scales are normally pretty thin, so...if you ever drop that razor... :gaah:

All that aside, it can probably be done. Just not on its own. You can probably make the scales really thin and attach them to acrylic scales. See; Max's abalone or paua scales. Sorry Max, I butchered the name of the material. If thats truly what you want to do, thats probably the best way. Really thin pieces attached to an acrylic backing.

A better route is to do inserts in wood.

hmmmm... sounds reasonable... didn't quite think about that. So with wood inserts, how does one finish wood? with laquer? and can anyone think of a bonding substance that will bond mineral to wood/acrylic/plastic?

You can use anything you want, you just can't use a solid piece of it...
lay it out in a mosaic pattern and allow for flex between the pieces and yer fine....

so that would be going along with the use a backing thing?

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Originally Posted by khaos

so that would be going along with the use a backing thing?

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Yes it would and normally they were done with metal liners in the past...sorta put together like a stained glass window...

Hmmmm... I could probably mill something out of aluminum or brass or whatever fits the mineral I use on the CNC mill here at school... how would I go about affixing it if it's mosaic style?

You must post pictures once your done!

That will be in a few months. I don't have rock cutting tools so I'll be hand filing/sanding it when I finally decide what I want to do....

Can someone please explain why I can't use a solid? If an expert says so I won't disagree, I'm just curious why?

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Originally Posted by khaos

Can someone please explain why I can't use a solid? If an expert says so I won't disagree, I'm just curious why?

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Would you even be able to drill the pivot holes without shattering the specimen? Just wondering.

Scales have to be able to flex enough for the tang of the blade, when opened and closed, to have enough room to move. Some tangs vary in thickness from the monkey tail to the blade.

That said -- I also have some razors that do not flex scales, because the width of the tang is completely uniform. I think it would be all about finding a blade that would work with completely solid scales.

If you put a brass washer between the tang and scales on each side, it would shield the blade from abrasion with the stone.

I would never say "DON'T DO IT" because, from a selfish standpoint, I'd never see any hand-carved stone razor scale pictures :) Even if the idea fails, I still want to see your shattered results :) hehe.

I was thinking about that. I'd take it to a jeweler and fork out for four holes. Shouldn't be too bad. If I ever got that far

Definitely have the holes drilled BEFORE you devote hours and hours shaping it down to scale-size. it will be less likely to crack/shatter.

I mean, jewelers drill holes in smaller gems all the time, like beads and what not. A very high rpm diamond bit cuts clean through basically anything

This still does not solve the two problems I forsee.

1. As previously mentioned by Undream, scales must flex to work properly. I very much doubt anything as brittle as a rock, mineral or gem would hold up to this abuse. I'm sure other scale makers will agree. On the other hand, ambition sometimes triumphs over experience, so don't let us discourage you.

2. The scales will be quite heavy and thus have a tendency to loosen their own pins. It will also be cumbersome to shave with.

If you decide to do it I vote for the malachite.

Just an idea...If you do the mosaic, rather than getting small pieces to use, you should get a larger piece and cut that up into the small pieces so that you can retain the grain pattern.

When ever it's done, do post pictures.

Good luck!

My one friend is a glass working hobbiest I just remembered. It may be easier (and end up pretty cool anyway) as proof of concept to ask him to knock out some solid glass scales and some moasaic-ic-able peices of galss scale and just see if either will work. Unnfortunately we are at different colleges, so it may be a while til I see him.

I say try it. No one can actually say whether something in your head will work or not. Maybe something will work for you that others haven't been able to do. Don't worry about 'wasting' time on it. It will never be a waste because you will learn something. Your first set might not be ideal, but the next will surely be better. I can imagine it working somehow.

Alright. Thanks for all the input guys. just so no ones hopes get too high I said from the beginning this woul dbe long term, but I will definately keep you posted on the progression.

I know less than nothing about it but ..... I am thinking of the solid Abalone scales without liners on a Livi I have. Wouldn't that present all of the projected problems that the mineral scales might have ? The razor isn't out of balance and flexibility hasn't been a problem so far. OTOH if I were to drop it that would be a tragedy.

I know that W&B as well as others made MOP scales with liners, probably for reinforcement. If you do try the tiger eye or whatever scales and they are heavy a large wedge like a 'barber's use' might balance it out ?

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I know less than nothing about it but ..... I am thinking of the solid Abalone scales without liners on a Livi I have. Wouldn't that present all of the projected problems that the mineral scales might have ? The razor isn't out of balance and flexibility hasn't been a problem so far. OTOH if I were to drop it that would be a tragedy.

I know that W&B as well as others made MOP scales with liners, probably for reinforcement. If you do try the tiger eye or whatever scales and they are heavy a large wedge like a 'barber's use' might balance it out ?

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Abalone, MOP and other shells have a layered scructure (natural laminated composite material) which makes them more resilient. Minerals have a regular chrystaline scructure which fails differently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I know less than nothing about it but ..... I am thinking of the solid Abalone scales without liners on a Livi I have. Wouldn't that present all of the projected problems that the mineral scales might have ? The razor isn't out of balance and flexibility hasn't been a problem so far. OTOH if I were to drop it that would be a tragedy.

I know that W&B as well as others made MOP scales with liners, probably for reinforcement. If you do try the tiger eye or whatever scales and they are heavy a large wedge like a 'barber's use' might balance it out ?

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In addition to what floppyshoes said, abolone is 10x lighter than minerals. Weight and lack of flex are my biggest worries.

That said, I want you to succeed Khaos. I really want to see these scales. Just trying to brainstorm all the foreseeable pitfalls so you can avoid them in your undertaking.

I really think a really thin piece of the stone with an acrylic backing would work. Thin like a veneer, ie, just for show.

Have plenty of ventilation and/or mask. Malachite is toxic in particle form.

I hope it works out. I have kilos of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan that would be interesting to see used some day as scales or spacers. Deep blue with sparkling pyrite would be nice.

I realize that it's a wood, and not a mineral, but isn't ebony a product of africa as well?

I think a nice dark ebony with tiger's eye inserts would like classy.

Of course, I see no reason not to attempt your original plan if you have the means. At this point, you'd be going into it with your eyes wide open with regard to the potential for failure; and you could probably avoid a lot of the suggested problems by starting with a razor that already has inflexible scales. i.e. SS scales.

You could do the same (to a degree) for balance by putting them on a large wedge or meat chopper.

The ebony with inserts is a great Idea. Thanks a lot for all your input guys. Over the past few days I've been trying to find a junker with an even (not tapering) tang/monkey tail so I can test this out. Where I live there is a lot of high quality shale and slate (if i can find a big enough piece slate suits my purposes better) So I was think once I find a suitable piece of rust I'll sand/maas the tang, make up some slate/shale scale cus its easier to form, and test various methods of trying to make all the hinging/flex problems work.

Right now I'm thinking if I put a silicone washer and a brass washer between the razor and scales on both sides of the tang, then use a microfastener as a pin so I can bolt it down and put pressure on the silicon washers, potentially I could get the friction high enough to keep the blade open, yet able to open and close easily still. I did the mechanics of this and on paper its feasible if I can get silicone with the right range of k-values (not too hard not too soft) and am able to tighten down a microbolt enough to create a sufficeint normal force.

I'm no expert but Scales just don't need to be flexable, I have used a set of scales made from thick ebony and they are solid as rocks. The key is to eather make the "wedge" as wide as the tang so that the scales don't flex, or to make the wedge the exact angle needed to make the tang end the correct separation to prevent flex. The only problem I see is the balance issue, maybe it could work with a huge wedge style razor, but for a hollow grind they would be way to heavy in my opinion.

With regards to this project, does any one know of any junked wedges someone would be willign to part with? Like hunk of metal junked. Purely to check the pinning method and balance issues, if it works I'll pop the scales off and get a good blade.

Probably. I get **** razors in the mail all the time.