Tung oil finish for walnut brush and scales?

I've got a question for all you wood finishers.
What I've done so far: I've turned my first project and it happens to be shave brush handle in walnut. I've decided on a pure tung oil finish (from Rockler) since I've never tried it, I want a matte finish, doesn't have fumes, was supposed to be waterproof. First coat was 50/50 mineral spirits to tung. I then rubbed on a light layer of that, let it sit 15 minutes, wiped off any extra and rubbed it in with my hands (as per the instructions). The other three or four coats were straight tung oil. Now, I've let it sit at least a week. I did a quick test of water droplets to see if it was waterproofed and it failed. So I got some Helmsman spray urethane and did two very thin coats. It doesn't seem to be drying. I can literally scrape it off with my palm.

My questions: Can I truly get a waterproof seal with tung oil? Should I let the brush sit in vat of it for a couple days (because maybe my coats were too thin)? Can I put urethane right on top of dried tung oil?

That was a long post. Thank you for reading. As repayment for information I'll post pictures of the handle (and eventually scales).

Scrape it all off and start again...

One, I would not use Tung on a brush, there is a big difference in getting the scales wet and then drying them off, and SOAKING that brush in hot hot water, then having a damp brush for hours after the shave....
I will argue till I am blue in the face saying that NO tung oil finish will hold up to that for long....

OK now what to use, first clean it off, use acetone let it dry, use acetone, let it dry...

If I were doing it, I would use a sealer first, then the most water proof coating I could get on there...
Or maybe just use pour epoxy and be done with it...

I was worried that would be the case. Well, sometimes you try "new" things and you fail. Thanks for the advice Glen. Guess what I'll be doing tonight.

My experience has been that getting wood wet isn't what hurts it, its drying it and the fungi that it can develop. I have a walnut back scrubber that has been soaked every night for the last 5 years and still going strong. No cracks, no checks, no nothing.

Tung oil is not the best finish for brushes, but it's still a lot better than no finish at all.

IMHO the best finish for brushes is a hybrid oil/topcoat. an example of such a finish would look like this:

1. oil, several coats, burnish between coats
2. lightly sand
3. shellac wash coat
4. polyurethane (or other waterproof topcoat)

By using oil and then topcoating, you greatly reduce the chance of water infiltrating through the topcoat (either physically through cracks/scratches/dents or by means of vapor transfer, which is what happens when liquid water is allowed to sit on it)

I have had pretty good luck with epoxy on brushes.. it's kind of tricky though on a 3d surface like a brush though. So far it is my favorite of all of the finishing options I've tried.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by floppyshoes

Tung oil is not the best finish for brushes, but it's still a lot better than no finish at all.

IMHO the best finish for brushes is a hybrid oil/topcoat. an example of such a finish would look like this:

1. oil, several coats, burnish between coats
2. lightly sand
3. shellac wash coat
4. polyurethane (or other waterproof topcoat)

By using oil and then topcoating, you greatly reduce the chance of water infiltrating through the topcoat (either physically through cracks/scratches/dents or by means of vapor transfer, which is what happens when liquid water is allowed to sit on it)

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Not to discount gssixgun's advice, but I think I'll give floppyshoes' method a shot. I really like the look of tung oil and i want to see if I can get it to work. Since shellac works with oil coats and poly I think this will be my road of travel this time. Worst case is it doesn't work and I have to take it back to an acetone bath.

I would do epoxy but the person I'm making this for doesn't want a shiny finish. Granted, I could cloud the resin haha.

Dan is Da Man when it come to wood finishing, there is no doubt...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by claytor

Not to discount gssixgun's advice, but I think I'll give floppyshoes' method a shot. I really like the look of tung oil and i want to see if I can get it to work. Since shellac works with oil coats and poly I think this will be my road of travel this time. Worst case is it doesn't work and I have to take it back to an acetone bath.

I would do epoxy but the person I'm making this for doesn't want a shiny finish. Granted, I could cloud the resin haha.

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Make sure the oil's cured first, or nothing will adhere properly, not even shellac. If it's not curing, you'll have to remove it with acetone as glen says. My method assumes the oil is cured before you go on to the topcoat.

Are you not rubbing it off enough? Are you not leaving it enough time to cure between coats? If it's a "Tung oil finish" then there are likely dryers and maybe even varnish in the mix, so if it's not curing in a few days there's a problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by floppyshoes

Make sure the oil's cured first, or nothing will adhere properly, not even shellac. If it's not curing, you'll have to remove it with acetone as glen says. My method assumes the oil is cured before you go on to the topcoat.

Are you not rubbing it off enough? Are you not leaving it enough time to cure between coats? If it's a "Tung oil finish" then there are likely dryers and maybe even varnish in the mix, so if it's not curing in a few days there's a problem.

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Pure Tung and I let it cure for a while. I was rubbing the heck out of the the oil applications the first trip around. I wasn't sure how to tell when it was fully cured but I did the next application when it didn't have an oily feeling, didn't smell really strong of tung oil, and overall felt dry/had a slight sheen. I'm guessing I gave at least 24 hours between coats and then about 3 days on the final application.

Last night I sanded down to the initial coat of tung oil and reapplied. I went a bit heavier on the application then I did the first time. Rubbed it in with my palm, let it sit for 10 minutes, then rubbed it dry with a cloth. I'll give it 24 hours, hit it with sandpaper, and repeat.

There is a product that I have been using lately that is a combo of Polyurethane and Tung oil. I give it a lot of coats till it builds up then steel wool in down and then apply coats with a rag and let dry. I then buff it down with a rag. It gives a very durable finish with the advantages of Tung oil which is that it penetrates the wood and fills in the cells of the wood.

Later,
Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by riooso

There is a product that I have been using lately that is a combo of Polyurethane and Tung oil. I give it a lot of coats till it builds up then steel wool in down and then apply coats with a rag and let dry. I then buff it down with a rag. It gives a very durable finish with the advantages of Tung oil which is that it penetrates the wood and fills in the cells of the wood.

Later,
Richard

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And what would the name of the product be Richard?

Sorry I was thinking it was available at all wood stores and not really brand specific. It is made by "General Finishes" ARM-R-SEAL. It comes in gloss, semi-gloss and Satin.

The site for this product is- Oilbased wood stains, out door oil,salad bowl oil from General Finishes

and I use the stuff in the green can.

I get it at a Woodcraft store near Sacramento,CA.

Take Care,
Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by floppyshoes

Tung oil is not the best finish for brushes, but it's still a lot better than no finish at all.

IMHO the best finish for brushes is a hybrid oil/topcoat. an example of such a finish would look like this:

1. oil, several coats, burnish between coats
2. lightly sand
3. shellac wash coat
4. polyurethane (or other waterproof topcoat)

By using oil and then topcoating, you greatly reduce the chance of water infiltrating through the topcoat (either physically through cracks/scratches/dents or by means of vapor transfer, which is what happens when liquid water is allowed to sit on it)

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I have a question about this. I am finishing a set of Jatoba scales. I had put Tung Oil on for the first coat. Then I used Valspar Professional high gloss water based poly for my finish coats. The Valspar went on very nice and leveled well. It dried fast and within an hour I used 0000 steel wool to scuff the finish for the next coat. WOW, I was surprised to see the poly was peeling off the scale. I ended up taking the sand paper and removing all of the poly finish and then went to the hardware store and bought some oil based high gloss poly.
The question I have is: After applying the Tung Oil, is it a imperative to use a top coat? I would like to know what would be the best top coat after using Tung Oil. I see that floppyshoes uses shellac as a top coat. And by the term "wash coat", is that thinned out shellac? Why shellac?
Thanks,
Bill W

The question I have is: After applying the Tung Oil, is it a imperative to use a top coat?

No you can use the tung oil as a top coat it will not be the most durable finish but it will work. As a matter of fact some of my scales just have a coat of wax on them and they do fine. I would not do it on a brush that I soaked in hot water but it woud work fine for a set of scales that sees very little water

I would like to know what would be the best top coat after using Tung Oil.

I would use a an oil based varnish over oil-tung/linseed. Water based finishes work well but are picky about adhesion, It is usually the best case to stick with all oil based or all water based.




I see that floppyshoes uses shellac as a top coat. And by the term "wash coat", is that thinned out shellac? Why shellac?

Shellac out of the can is usually the ratio of 3lbs shellac resin to 1 gallon of alcohol, a 3# cut. A wash coat is shellac that is mixed to about a 1# or less cut. So yes a wash coat is thinned out shellac.

Shellac makes for a great barrier coat between two layers of finishes. Shellac has amazing adhereing properties and in one of the best barriers against water vapor.

Shellac would make a great barrier coat between an oil based coat-Tung oil and a waterbased top coat. The catch is, is that shellac has naturally occurring wax in it and water based coating does not adhere well to the wax. A dewaxed shellac would be perfect between the coats of tung oil and water base top coat.




Charlie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by turbine712

The question I have is: After applying the Tung Oil, is it a imperative to use a top coat? I would like to know what would be the best top coat after using Tung Oil. I see that floppyshoes uses shellac as a top coat. And by the term "wash coat", is that thinned out shellac? Why shellac?
Thanks,
Bill W

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I am more of a woodworker than a razor guy although I have done some scales. Jatoba is a very oily wood and pretty dense and by itself tends to shed water. Tung oil by itself is good and has been used for centuries to waterproof wood but needs to be reapplied and does not give the durability of other coatings. Tung oil penetrates very well and "fills" the cells of the wood that it is being used on and hardens in the cells. This does actually harden the wood, to a certain extent. That being said it takes a lot of coats for the process to be completed and eventual, after about 5 coats, no more will penetrate. The reason that I like the mentioned top coat is that Poly is part of the mixture and really gives a very waterproof and durable finish. It will not be as shiny and plastic looking as Shellac or epoxy or CA but it is very nice and is very "goof" proof. If you put on enough coats it will fill in the grain and look very nice indeed and will exhibit the qualities of a Poly with the added benefit of Tung Oil.


Take Care, Hope it was not to wordy!

Richard

Thanks guys for the information. This Valspar Professional high gloss poly is really some cool stuff. Easy clean up and the finish is really nice. It really looks and feels like the scale is made of plastic. Some people who have seen them say they think the scales is made out of plastic not wood. I will have them riveted hopefully tomorrow and will post pics.
Thanks again,
Bill W

Curious what about acrylics? Marbelized resin handle? I also have slate green heavy acrylic resin brush? How do I maintain it?

I've renaissance wax so that should suffice? :o Says it's good for metals, furniture, marble, paintings etc...

Many thanks!

Ivan
Ninja edit
found this

Prior to 1950, the only polishes available were based on beeswax and carnuba wax. Unfortunately, these natural, saponifiable products would cause damage when acids arose spontaneously through oxidation or hydrolysis.

To solve the problem, a consortium of international conservationists directed a scientist from the British Museum to conduct intensive research and find the "perfect wax." When he could not find any that met their exacting standards, he created a new wax in his laboratory. The revolutionary formula he invented is a semi-synthetic micro-crystalline fossil-origin wax entirely free of, damaging acids. It remains chemically neutral and is therefore completely safe, even on vulnerable surfaces.
The British Museum approved manufacture of this wax for its own use and for distribution to the public. That "perfect wax" is now available internationally under the name RENAISSANCE WAX .

CLEANS BEAUTIFULLY
Lift oil, dirt and the murky accretions of other polishes. The surface detail remains crystal clear through unlimited applications of this translucent wax; removes previous wax build-up; reveals fine detail & wood grain; non-staining, non-abrasive.

RESTORES AND ENHANCES
Revitalize and return your objects to pristine condition. RENAISSANCE WAX buffs easily to a hard, transparent finish that will not discolor; Renews fading colors and "tired finishes;" retains matte finish when unpolished; buffs to a high gloss; reduces shine of new picture varnish.

POLISHES AND PROTECTS
Guard your precious pieces against the damaging effects of humidity...heat...dust... environmental destruction...aging...and ordinary wear. RENAISSANCE WAX provides a barrier against fingerprints and the devastation of water, wine, alcohol and other spills. With its high moisture resistance, it forms a durable, lustrous protective coating. prevents tarnish, corrosion and "bloom;" remains completely waterproof; retards weathering on exteriors and objects exposed to climatic abrasion.

A LITTLE GOES A LONG WAY... AND LASTS A LONG TIME
Excellent spread and indefinite shelf life make RENAISSANCE WAX economical and convenient, even for very large objects and infrequent use. A small dab goes a long way, unlike most waxes that need generous application. Use a minimal amount of RENAISSANCE WAX , rub lightly, and buff if a gloss is desired. The long-lasting preservation reduces the need for frequent maintenance. Airtight container keeps wax in perfect condition; always spreadable, no caking or drying out; indefinite shelf life; no "polish smell;" no added fragrance to endanger material.

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Wood - Raw & Finished, Leather, Parchment & Paper, Metal - Silver, Silverplate, Gold, Copper & Copper Alloys (Bronze, Brass, Tin, Zinc, German Silver, Nickel), Lead & Pewter, Iron & Iron Alloys, Tin & Tin Alloys, Damascus; Stone, Marble, Onyx, Limestone, Granite, Brick, Tile, Terrazzo, Obsidian, Alabaster; Gems, Glass, Porcelain, Holloware, Bone, Ivory, Horn, Shell & Mother-of-Pearl, Gutta Percha, Dammars; Gilding & Gold Leaf, Patinas, Enamel, Lacquer, Japanning, Cloute, Pose d'Or, Pique Point, Varnish, Marbleizing, Stains & Artificial Graining; Plastics, Formicas, Paints, Polyvinyl Acetates, Esters of Polymethyacrylic, Polycyclohexanones, Fiberglas Epoxy Resins, and much more!

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Thanks for the information. I knew RW was used in British Museums, but didn't know all the rest.
Thanks,
Bill W

Quote:

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Originally Posted by turbine712

I have a question about this. I am finishing a set of Jatoba scales. I had put Tung Oil on for the first coat. Then I used Valspar Professional high gloss water based poly for my finish coats. The Valspar went on very nice and leveled well. It dried fast and within an hour I used 0000 steel wool to scuff the finish for the next coat. WOW, I was surprised to see the poly was peeling off the scale. I ended up taking the sand paper and removing all of the poly finish and then went to the hardware store and bought some oil based high gloss poly.
The question I have is: After applying the Tung Oil, is it a imperative to use a top coat? I would like to know what would be the best top coat after using Tung Oil. I see that floppyshoes uses shellac as a top coat. And by the term "wash coat", is that thinned out shellac? Why shellac?
Thanks,
Bill W

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Let me clarify some vocabulary first.

Topcoat: A finishing product applied OVER wood which provides physical protectiuon to the wood. Any finish that builds up. Tung oil will build up, but the general consensus among woodworkers is that it is not a top coat.

Wash Coat: a thinned version of topcoat, used as a barrier between two layers of a finish. Shellac, glue size and thinned polyurethane are examples.


I use the washcoat of shellac for exactly the reson said by spazola, to imrpove adhesion. Polyurethane doesn't adhere well to oiled or naturally oily woods, but shellac does. Polyurethane WILL adhere to shellac quite well. So it follows that to put polyurethane on oiled wood, you just have to put a coat of shellac down first. This coat does not have to be thick, just a thin film, thus the resoning behind using a diluted mix (wash coat). It also dries faster when thinned and contributes less to the color of the finish (which is sometimes a concern).

Has anyone used Tru-Oil by Birchwood Casey on wood scales? It has a base of linseed oil marketed for gunstocks. I have used it on a shotgun stock I refinished with great results. I'm not sure how it would hold up as a finish for a brush but for scales, I would think it would be as good or better than any oil finish.

Having refinished gunstocks for 25 years, I would tell you that an oil finish is best treated with an occasional coat of paste wax.

If I was finishing a brush handle, I would seal the bare wood with 2 or 3 coats of shellac and steelwool it smooth before applying any finish.

For a satin finish, I would take the final gloss off of whatever finish you decided to use with #0000 steelwool and then apply some Old English furniture oil to the dulled surface.

If you need further help, pm "cannonfodder" for advice. He makes the brushes for Lynn and Don at SRD.

Good Luck.............

JERRY
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