Possible to use as scales...

Hey Guys,
I have a question, and I hope I am putting it in the correct sub-forum. I have been looking for material to use for some scale replacement on an old Kropp I am working on. Today, I was walking around in the little town I live in today and came across a guy selling horn combs, and shoe horns and what not. He had a couple of flat pieces that looked like they might be long enough for a straight razor so I went ahead and bought them.However, when I explained what I wanted to use them for, he said they wouldn't work, because they would warp easily if they are around a lot of water (he knew I would be wet shaving).

Now being here as long as I have, I know these guys say that things can't be done, but for the most part I find a way to do it anyway. Looking at the horn pieces, they look like they will work fine other than the fact that the pattern is more curved than the blade curvature. However, as this looks to be from the tip, I thought he may have a point. Of course, he said all of his horn would not be usable, even a huge water buffalo horn, that I know I could get some flat pieces out of.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Will the horn work as a material? If so, what can I treat it with to help prevent warping (if that is even a concern after they have been flattened)? They only cost me $3, so I am not overly concerned. Anyway, here are the pics:

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0403.jpg

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0412.jpg

:eek: fly through them man, cant wait to see the finished product:gl: . hope you post pix.

Should work beautifully and be beautiful.Hope the real experts will chime in with details.

Haven't horn and bone been the posh material for scales before all this celluloid thingamabob?

Rather than imposing the straightness of curvature onto the material, how about using the material's own curvature? Sure, they might be too wonky, but you could always try to mock up paper/cardboard scales

I have to agree that I think those will work wonderfully. The natural shape and curve of the horn means that with a little trimming, you could have some very nicely flared scales. I personally don't really like that style, but you see customs up all the time with that sort of chunky flared out end, though you may consider a heavier blade for such an undertaking.

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Originally Posted by DPflaumer

I have to agree that I think those will work wonderfully. The natural shape and curve of the horn means that with a little trimming, you could have some very nicely flared scales. I personally don't really like that style, but you see customs up all the time with that sort of chunky flared out end, though you may consider a heavier blade for such an undertaking.

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My thoughts exactly. I feel this blade is a little on the small side to do wider scales. If it wasn't for the thinner blade I have, I think the curvature would be really nice. I think I will spend some more time looking at it, and see what I can come up with.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Not sure why he was so adamant that the horn couldn't be used. If you guys have any suggestions for sealing it, let me know.

I'm not sure either, since there are tons of horn scales around. I would try to help you out scaring up a heavier blade, but I really prefer smaller blades myself. Best of luck though, hope to see some great pictures when you get it all together.

Yeah, it is really easy for me to find materials here, but hard to find vintage razors. I may try to hit up some flea markets when I go back to NC for Christmas. I actually want to give my 2 brothers and father a straight razor for Christmas and was thinking I might mod some DAs. I know a lot of guys around here have problems with DAs, but I figure if I can do them up nicely, it will be a way to get another 3 guys (the family) interested in straight razors and wet shaving. Anyway, this will be my first restore and mods, so don't hold your breath for anything spectacular. I will be happy just to be able to shave with the Kropp again. :)

First of all you will need to cut the scales from the slabs. Once you have done so and start sanding them to size, shape and design, as they seem thick, the scales might warp a bit.

I use a standing steamer myself to straighten them. Or you could just boil some water and use the steam. Depending the direction you hold them they will straighten themselves back. It's really not that hard. I like to nourish them with neatsfoot oil myself.

You should be fine moving forward.

BTW, these are some fine looking horn slabs

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Originally Posted by Maximilian

First of all you will need to cut the scales from the slabs. Once you have done so and start sanding them to size, shape and design, as they seem thick, the scales might warp a bit.

I use a standing steamer myself to straighten them. Or you could just boil some water and use the steam. Depending the direction you hold them they will straighten themselves back. It's really not that hard. I like to nourish them with neatsfoot oil myself.

You should be fine moving forward.

BTW, these are some fine looking horn slabs

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Thanks Max. I think what the old guy was saying was that even if I got them straight, they would warp again after being around moisture. Do you find that to be true? Also, what do you think about using a food steamer and just put on the top shelf or something? I used to have an industrial clothing steamer, but it shorted out somehow and I haven't fixed it yet. If SWMBO is out, it might be worth a try. The neatsfoot oil sounds like the way to go.

They are quite thick at the bottom right now. I wish they were thick at the tip as well, I would just try to cut them down the middle. However, the tip is only 3mm while the bottom is 7mm, that's why I got two pcs. So, I definitely have some sanding ahead of me.

I just made a rough cut-out on one of the slabs. I only have a broken hacksaw blade and a dremel with well-worn attachments from de-pitting an old bike frame. I will need to get some more tools this weekend, but I couldn't wait to see how the horn handled. Plus SWMBO was out at her English class, so I was able to do it while she was gone. I am getting ready for a conference call, so I can't mess with the other one. Just wanted to get you guys opinion. Which side do you think looks the best facing out?

In this one, the pattern curvature is more prominent.
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0436.jpg

or this one, where the pattern is softer?

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0437.jpg

Personally I enjoy the sharp curve outside. I think you have some mighty fine scales in your future :D

Good luck and let me know how it goes

I'd say the same...picture #1.

Nice looking horn!

As far as the water is concerned, if you trat them with oil, and just be careful (don't let the scales sit in pools of water, or submerged) they should be fine.

Keep a small towel to wipe the scales down after you shave, and run it in between the scales as well. Blow forcefully around the pivot, and hang it up to dry.

Here's a Wiki entry on straightening horn scales in which the author says he soaks them in sweet almond oil for 24 hrs after straightening them. Good luck, and can't wait to see your new completed razor :)

Fixing warped horn scales - Straight Razor Place Wiki

If you were worried about warping you could always epoxy them to a liner but if you sealed them you wouldn't have to worry about water exposure. Max's expertise is top-notch though so I would do what he says.

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Originally Posted by claytor

If you were worried about warping you could always epoxy them to a liner but if you sealed them you wouldn't have to worry about water exposure. Max's expertise is top-notch though so I would do what he says.

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+1 on that, Max really knows his stuff here.

When the horn is flattened into plates it is boiled in water, sometimes for longer than an hour. Varying the heat can change the colour - a higher heat usually lightens the colour, sometimes turning it "blond" or translucent (it used to be used for lanterns = "lant-horn") - but the heat must be somewhat below 325 degrees or the horn becomes damaged and unusable. Boil it for long enough to get the plasticity you need - too long and it could turn into jelly! Gelatine can be produced in this way. It can always be returned to the heat. At this sort of heat it becomes a mouldable thermoplastic material, easily formed into shapes by hand or tools and can be pressed into carved moulds to give it a pattern, just like plastic. To produce the flat plate it is put into a press consisting of heated metal plates, and pressure is applied.

Wet heat isn't needed - it is time consuming, too. Dry heat produces much quicker results. A propane torch or similar can be used, or even the gas ring on the oven. A softly burning flame is necessary, so if you use propane you need one of the wide-mouthed solid ends that give an oxygen-starved, bushy flame - the small 'jet' pieces produce an intense flame that will burn or scorch the horn. For quite thin sections a hot-air blower or even a hairdryer will do.

If you inspect the plates you will see a tendency for them to curve in certain ways - work with the natural curve of the material, for instance for scales you could cut two pieces that bow away from each other. It is easily worked when dry and cold - a sanding block or rasp is all you need (you can see the coarse patterns left by the rasp on the insides sometimes, especially at the wedge end). Wear a mask while you sand it. The surface will go a bit "woolly" - don't worry about that. When you progress to higher grits, the smoothness begins to come back. Leaving off sanding at around 400 - 600 grit and going to a buffer with a tripoli mop brings up a glass-like shine. If you don't have a buffer just keep going higher up the grit scale until the finish is satisfactory. In days before buffers they used fine ashes, dampened, on a leather pad for the final shine.

When the pieces are thinner they can easily be bent by putting them in a pyrex jug filled with boiling water and leaving them for a few minutes. I do this to straighten old horn scales: into the pyrex, pour on boiling water and keep testing them find the point at which they turn plastic. Then place them on a flat bit of board, cover with another flat bit of board and use c-clamps round the edges. Leave until cool. They come out nice and flat. If you want to enhance the flatness, they could be put between two steel plates heated with the blowlamp. The longer period spent hot and the slow cooling down reduce the risk of warping.

I shouldn't worry too much about water exposure - you don't shave in boiling water do you?! If you try not to get the scales wet and don't keep them in a humid location, they should be OK - there are plenty of examples a 100 years old and more that survive and are still OK, after all. Soaking in tallow (use neatsfoot oil) was once used, but it only serves for waterproofing and possibly for stopping delamination from drying out too much, but it will darken the colour a little. And it smells like something cooking.

Regards,
Neil.

Hey Neil,
Really great post. Lots of knowledge crammed in there. I had guests tonight, and I am supposed to be taking a conference call later, but I really want to start sanding the scales right now. What grit is safe to start with? Can I go with an aggressive 80 grit wet/dry?

Also so some posts by others that said they ruined the scales by putting into boiling water. Where do you think they went wrong? Probably directly on stove as opposed to getting water to boiling point and removing from heat (I assume this how you do it)? Or do you keep the scales in the pyrex while on the stove?

I have an industrial hair dryer for my Newfoundlands. I was thinking of trying this first as I can always go higher.

As always, thanks for the help guys. You're a good bunch on here.

Hi Shangers!

The safest way is to just pour boiling water into the pyrex - that will take it below boiling point, then dip the scales in for a few secs then withdraw and see if they have become plastic enough to reshape - that's what I do. If the water needs to be hotter, boil the kettle again and replace the water - the now heated pyrex will keep the heat up.

You could place the pyrex on the hob like you suggest, but as the sclaes are quite small now you have cut them to size and - presumably - sanded out to remove hollows and the like, you probably won't have to do that. Depending on the scales thickness it only takes up to 5 mins max - trial and error!

If you are a bit leery of using water then by all means try the hot air blower. The only downside is that you will probably burn your fingers and the heat doesn't pentrate very far unless you really play it on the scales, so they cool down a lot quicker.

I usually sand starting at 150 - 180, but why not start with what you have on the inside surface of the scales, to see how it goes? It's easy stuff to sand, much easier than wood, so take it easy. Remember that you want to get all the scratch marks out eventually, and at lower grits that equates to taking quite a bit of depth off too.

If you have a spare piece of horn why dont you cut it to approx. scale dims and experiment with that first - sort of a trial run til you get comfortable with things.

Good luck!
Neil

Hey Guys,
Worked a bit on the scales this weekend. I got them to the correct thickness. However, I noticed as I was sanding that where the dark color striations are in the horn, it had the tendency to separate similar to a knot in wood. As such, I tried to sand from both sides, but because the scales were so thin, I got to a place where the striations were reaching the surface on both sides. I still need to take another mm off, and as such, I got into that pitting, knot-in-the-wood effect (sorry if I am not using the correct terms, feel free to correct me).

Anyway, now I have certain areas where the dark striations are, and pits around them. Also, thin film of horn near the striations which looks whitish like peeling skin. Is there anyway to fill in the pits? Should I soak with neatsfoot oil first, and then use some kind of epoxy to fill the pits, or is there nothing that can be done at this point?

I am thinking none of you pros ever got to this point, but if someone has an idea, I am open to suggestions.

The peeling part is a symptom of delamination - the layers are coming apart. I couldn't see any sign of it in the pics you posted, or I would have mentioned it. Sometimes - if the material is thick enough - you can sand through it, sometimes not. You mostly see it in old, dried horn. Soaking in neatsfoot oil doesn't cure it, it just makes it look less obvious - the refractive index of the oil must be somewhere near that of horn, so oil fills the gaps between layers rather than air. If the oil dries out/evaporates, the delamination will still be there.

Not sure about the knot and pitmarks - never seen that before. Perhaps a finer grade paper would help - try it on a scrap piece.

Seeing as the horn has several issues already I'm not too keen on the boiling water bending process - it might make things worse!

Regards,
Neil.

The nature of horn is that it is a gamble. It may warp, it may not- regardless of water exposure. That's just the risk you take. It could happen in a year, it could happen in ten, etc. Using a liner won't stop warping because the liner material is usually thin and flexible. Stabilizing it (I mean professionally, not DIY types) would be the closest you can come to stopping warping, but with horn I'm not sure if there's a guarantee there.

Hey Neil,
I will try to take some photos showing the pitting before I head to work tomorrow. The scales were fairly straight from the get-go, only the wedge ends needed some tweaking. Just like they were twisted a bit. I went ahead and did the boiling yesterday. Didn't seem to make anything worse. Was actually quite flexible and when it cooled down seemed really hard.

Not too worried about the warping, more concerned with the peeling and pitting, and how to fill in those places.

The horn was about 7mm thick at some parts and 4mm thick on the thinner parts. The scales are now about 2.5mm thick on each. As such, I had to remove a lot of material, and that is how I ran into the pitting problems.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

The peeling part is a symptom of delamination - the layers are coming apart. I couldn't see any sign of it in the pics you posted, or I would have mentioned it. Sometimes - if the material is thick enough - you can sand through it, sometimes not. You mostly see it in old, dried horn. Soaking in neatsfoot oil doesn't cure it, it just makes it look less obvious - the refractive index of the oil must be somewhere near that of horn, so oil fills the gaps between layers rather than air. If the oil dries out/evaporates, the delamination will still be there.

Not sure about the knot and pitmarks - never seen that before. Perhaps a finer grade paper would help - try it on a scrap piece.

Seeing as the horn has several issues already I'm not too keen on the boiling water bending process - it might make things worse!

Regards,
Neil.

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I decided to go ahead and take the photos as I am up waiting for a conference call. Anyway, here are the issues I was talking about.

Overall photos of the two scales. They are pretty flat. I upped the contrast so you could clearly see the peeling. Also, if you look at the dark striations on the lower scale, to the left of the longest striation you can see a bit of the pitting:
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0442.jpg

Close up of the peeling:
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0446.jpg

Pitting on both of the scales. Can it be filled with epoxy? Or do an epoxy wash similar to what is done to micarta?
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0444.jpg

Close up of the pitting (knots) from the inside of the other scale. It always happens where the dark striations are, but only if those places are sanded to the surface. I tried to keep those areas from coming to the surface, but I need to get the scales down to 2.5mm, and unfortunately both sides of each scale had the striations reaching the surface:

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/DSC_0447.jpg

A close up of the problems. 1 shows the pitting. 2 the peeling:
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v...DSC_0442-1.jpg

I think I'd fill with clear epoxy and sand smooth. For that matter, you could seal the whole scale as you mentioned.

What GeauLSU says sounds reasonable. You would have to fill - sand - fill -sand until you evened everything out, then cover everything with the smae medium. Make sure it is perfectly dry. You might still get some stress-cracking due to differential movement over time.

I haven't seen that sort of pitting before. I'm guessing that this is from the inner part of the horn and is part of the living material (horn is just keratin, like nails or hair - dead - the outer layer) making the transition from bone to keratin.

The keratin layers are laid down like a sheath or covering over a core of bone, which obviously has its own infrastructure of capillaries and nerves. Perhaps the closer you get to this, the less keratinised the sheath is.

They still look good though - you have made some nice scales!

Regards,
Neil