Will the Scratches Ever Come Out?

I've been hand sanding a bunch of razors, and I can't seem to get the low grit scratches out. The progression I'm working with is 120, 220, 400, 600 - the only grits I can find in the hardware stores in my area. When I go from 120 to 220, I keep on going until the scratches seem to go away, but when I go up to the next level, it's almost as if I'm revealing the scratches from the first level.

Is there a solution for this? I have been going in perpendicular directions on each grit, hoping it will remove the scratches faster and be more obvious when I make progress. I know I'll need to get 1K or higher to get rid of the 600 grit scratches, so I'm not worried about that for now. I need to make a trip to an Autozone...

Yes they will after many many hours of sanding. You have to very patient between grits. Its s lot easier to use greaseless compound, but you need a buffer. Just keep at it and the scratches will go away.

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Originally Posted by BingoBango

I've been hand sanding a bunch of razors, and I can't seem to get the low grit scratches out. The progression I'm working with is 120, 220, 400, 600 - the only grits I can find in the hardware stores in my area. When I go from 120 to 220, I keep on going until the scratches seem to go away, but when I go up to the next level, it's almost as if I'm revealing the scratches from the first level.

Is there a solution for this? I have been going in perpendicular directions on each grit, hoping it will remove the scratches faster and be more obvious when I make progress. I know I'll need to get 1K or higher to get rid of the 600 grit scratches, so I'm not worried about that for now. I need to make a trip to an Autozone...

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Well hand sanding is far-and-away the most tedious task in restoration because it's so repetitive. The scratches will go away eventually and unfortunately the only solutions are either patience, or perhaps reading up on buffers with compounds.

I haven't had any really major pitting problems so my razors have all started at 400-grit. I do 400, 800, 1k, 1500, 2k and then polish. I can only speak for the, say, 2-dozen razors I've sanded but the 400-grit was enough to take care of minor pitting and rust. Just takes a little longer initially but the scratch marks aren't as deep.

get yourself a tumbler and with the right stuff adderd to the media you will get some great results:
read this all of it, it will give the idea how to etc
Tumbler thread

Ha! Yeah, well hand sanding is really the only thing that's going to fit in this pre-war apartment.

I think I've got 2 of 'em to a pretty good 600 grit "layer" so I'll see what happens at 1K. I can see some deeper scratches underneath, but I've resigned to having some scratches in the end. I'm not gonna undo 2 hours going back a couple grits.

Trey mentioned greaseless compounds - do I have to use a buffer? Will I be able to do it with a rag? I know, I know, just get a Dremel... But I keep spending money on razors! :shrug:

Not only has my patience (kinda) grown during this process, but so has my appreciation for the really great restorations. If you want to know what it takes to do a restoration, try sanding for 5 hours.

personally I think the hand sanding looks better in the end over the dremel, (I don't have a buffer either). Sanding just takes a long time and I sometimes have to go back when I realize I didn't quite get some scratches out.

One thing you may want to consider is watching your pressure. If you don't let the sand paper do the work you can put deeper scratches in there that take longer to get out.

You could also consider not starting at 120 if you can avoid it. For some razors the damage may be bad enough to warrant it but in other occasions you might find it is overkill and costing you more time.

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Originally Posted by BingoBango

Ha! Yeah, well hand sanding is really the only thing that's going to fit in this pre-war apartment.

I think I've got 2 of 'em to a pretty good 600 grit "layer" so I'll see what happens at 1K. I can see some deeper scratches underneath, but I've resigned to having some scratches in the end. I'm not gonna undo 2 hours going back a couple grits.

Trey mentioned greaseless compounds - do I have to use a buffer? Will I be able to do it with a rag? I know, I know, just get a Dremel... But I keep spending money on razors! :shrug:

Not only has my patience (kinda) grown during this process, but so has my appreciation for the really great restorations. If you want to know what it takes to do a restoration, try sanding for 5 hours.

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You don't need a buffer at all, but you asked for alternatives to hand sanding and that's really the only one. Dremels are great all-around tools but I don't see any reason to get one just for razors. Personally I just use mine for polishing.

A tumbler was also mentioned and they're great for polishing. It's a good alternative to the higher grit sandpaper, but a tumbler won't remove pitting. There's a massive thread by Glen about them and I think it was generally agreed that it could replace 1000-grit sanding and above.

Edit: Glen's thread on tumblers:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...mentation.html

Ignatz' great write-up on sanding:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...polishing.html

Try getting a better progression of s.p. I was dealing with some "scratch" issues with the razors I've been working on. I could only find certain grits at the local tru-value and ACE that are nearby so I went to fleabay. Got 50 sheets of wet-dry for $30something (less than $35 total with s&h). It's all the FEPA (European)"P" which is smaller grit than the CAMI (USA) but it's all in order so I don't have to try to go from 600 to 1500 (or whatever). Still takes a while but in the last approx 4 days of sanding here and there I've made more progress than in the last couple months. Check it out. Won't hurt to look and see if that's what you need.

Thanks for all the suggestions and links. I'm gonna take another look at greaseless compounds without getting a buffer. You're probably right Commie - a Dremel could be a bit excessive. I've gotten by this long without one...

Hornm made a good point about the progression I'm using, and it's pretty tough to distinguish between what scratches were made at what grit level. I'm also going to watch my pressure going forward and see if that helps any.

In learning to use my buffer, through my own minimal experience and talking to others, I have found the following seems to be very helpful in eliminating scratches. Before changing up in grit, you should be using only the lightest pressure in a single direction, and you should not move up until only scratches in that direction remain. This will ensure that you have the shallowest scratches possible from that grit. Then, when you move up in grit by one step, work perpendicular (or at least across) the previous grit's scratch pattern and eliminate it completely. Then, switch directions, reduce pressure, and eliminate those initial scratches. Rinse and repeat until you are back to next to no pressure and have a unidirectional scratch pattern. Then jump up again and do the same process.

By reducing pressure to make shallower scratches, you will have less work to do when you jump up in grit. By changing directions, you can always catch the blade in the right light to see if you eliminate your previous scratches.

It seems the trick next is to learn how to carefully control your pressure and vary your directions at each stage to minimize the amount of time you spend.

This is what I am working on with my buffer, but since hand sanding is essentially the same thing, but by hand, I figure some of it will probably translate. It's just too bad I can't bring the buffer to the meet - it would fit in the car, but I'm sure the proprietor would not appreciate the mess.

+1 on what holli4pirating said. That is exactly what I do.
You could also try your local Auto accessory type store. They seem to have a better range of W/D paper (the ones around here do anyway), you sould be able to fill in some of the gaps in your progression, 180, 320 grits etc

+1 to holli here as well. This seems to be working pretty well for me on the three blades I am trying to polish and the razors that I am setting up for rotation as well. I just have a problem with finding a stopping point. I mean, for a daily user that you are not taking to a mirror finish, when do you let it go? I tend to grab a blade in relatively good shape, clean and disinfect it, and think "maybe I will hit it with some 1000 to take a bit of the dust off..." and forty minutes later my hands are black and I am working 220 on a scaleless blade. What do you guys do to just CLEAN UP a daily user?

Being in the city, there aren't any Autozones nearby. I've tried to go perpendicular from grit to grit, but Dylan's idea is better thought out and might work better. Part of this could just be some undiagnosed OCD... :shrug:

Paul,

I worked on a blade for two weeks and finally gave up on hand sanding. When I got to final polish, it just showed scratches here and there that drove me crazy! I know it must be possible but I finally pulled out the buffer and tumbler and got there that way.


Barry

When I was doing only hand work, I used synthetic steel wool instead of sandpaper. I found that using the synth steel wool with MAAS seemed to leave far less scratches than when using just the synth steel wool. For example, with MAAS, the grey 000 Norton synth steel wool will not leave scratches (that I can see), but without MAAS it will.

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Originally Posted by BingoBango

I've been hand sanding a bunch of razors, and I can't seem to get the low grit scratches out. The progression I'm working with is 120, 220, 400, 600 - the only grits I can find in the hardware stores in my area. When I go from 120 to 220, I keep on going until the scratches seem to go away, but when I go up to the next level, it's almost as if I'm revealing the scratches from the first level.

Is there a solution for this? I have been going in perpendicular directions on each grit, hoping it will remove the scratches faster and be more obvious when I make progress. I know I'll need to get 1K or higher to get rid of the 600 grit scratches, so I'm not worried about that for now. I need to make a trip to an Autozone...

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2cents....
Skip the 120 and 220 in the future unless it is absolutely necessary.
In general you need to get the 120 scratches out with 220 and if
you do not it almost takes an infinite time to get 120 grit scratches out
with 400 or 600..... As thin as a full hollow blade is the coarse grits
have the potential to remove too much material on the thin parts of
the blade. Hunt some 1000, 2000 wet dry paper at an
auto supply or hardware store. My bits of 3M 2000 wet/ dry are marked
for finishing layers of clear coat on an auto and while 2000 does not
grind out pits it very much cleans things up so I can see if I need to
bother.... with a coarser grit.

Support your abrasive paper and the razor with something that
has been shaped to match the curves. Perhaps some soft pine...
this permits some additional elbow grease.....

Try to find some 180 and 320 paper.
I found that at coarse grits, doing a big jump (120 to 220) will take a long time to wipe out.

If you guys remember TheTopher .... I watched him refinish razors with the dremel and compounds. He would get a mirror finish but that was after up to ten (10) hours of hand sanding. :gaah:

I know you guys were losing sleep over my low grit scratches, so I thought I'd update you on my progress. (Damn my fingers hurt!) I think the biggest problems for me were a) pressure, b) consistency at each level and c) recognizing where the scratches were coming from. I think I addressed each of them.

For this session I used 400, 600 then I added 1K/1200 and finally 2K. I'd say I spent about 10 minutes at each level, and everything has a pretty even 2K texture that should buff out using Grey Star then White Rouge on a Dremel.

This was the process at each level of grit: First, I wiped down the blade with clean, wet paper towel to remove any residual SP from the last grit. Second, I used circular motions to "erase" any old scratch marks with light but firm pressure keeping half of the blade on my jig and half in my non-dominant hand. Third, I held the blade in my non-dominant hand and used heel-to-toe motions to "erase" the circles I just created with light pressure. If I did each of the steps correctly, I'd have only one size scratch going heel-to-toe on the razor and I'd move to the next grit.

The three major differences: I didn't keep the razor on the table or my makeshift jig to avoid using too much pressure. By holding the razor in my hand, there was really only so much force I could exert and I think it made things move quicker. Second, I didn't use a block to hold the sandpaper for the same reason: limit pressure. Finally, I had my non-dominant hand in a work glove so I wouldn't cut myself while I held the blade. Sure it was dull, but because I wasn't squeezing the life out of it, it would slip a bit in my hand and could've cut me if I didn't wear a glove.

Well, thanks again for all the tips! Maybe this'll help somebody else as they hand sand.

Glad to hear you've had some success, and thanks for sharing your tips with the rest of us.

I think the glove is a great idea. I'm more likely to cut myself with "dull" razors than "sharp" ones. Remember, dull and sharp are relative; a dull razor is still about as sharp as the average person's kitchen knife (unless you're a knife nut).

automotive paint supply stores are a great place to find super fine sanding paper wet/dry

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

But without the compound and Dremel, were there still scratches after 2k?

I just finished lightly restoring a few razors, and they have plenty of scratch marks, yet if I put the blade near something it will reflect the image almost like it were mirror shiny.

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Yeah, I get that look to it, too, but if I catch the right light there are really fine scratches that almost just looks like dullness. I have to look for them by twisting the razor. I might go back to 1200 and up to 2K again, just to see if I can even out the scratches a bit better or get rid of 'em. But one I get to 2K there's that mirror shine in there that gets me antsy to use the buffer!

Of course, there are a few stray scratches from the real low grits that I didn't bother to go back and get, but that's something different. I just didn't want to go all the way back to 120. I find most of the strays near the shoulder/stabilizers actually. I'm also noticing a trend on where rust forms: shoulder/stabilizers, near the pivot obviously, jimps of course, on the toe if it's close to the wedge and along the edge of the scales when closed.