Rotary tool?

Hi guys, so I was thinking about picking up a rotary/dremel type tool recently for all its various uses, razor restores included. The only power tools I have access to at the moment are a drill and hand held circular saw (not sure if thats the proper name for it). I'm not all that tool savvy and was thinking a rotary tool would provide a lot of utility in a single item. A quick search here brought up this guy as a recommended alternative to a dremel:

American Science & Surplus : "rotary" - Rotary and Dremel Tools

Not much discussion on it though, so I was wondering if anyone has experience with these? I'm planning on using it (as far as razor related things go) for restoring old blades and making scales. This would mean: sanding and buffing razors for restoring; cutting, shaping and sanding wood and other scale materials; drilling pin holes and cutting pins; whatever else I discover I might be able to use it for.

I understand a dremel is a bad choice for this because of the high minimum speed, but this should be alright from what I understand. One of my main concerns is that it would be difficult if not impossible to drill a decent pin hole without a guide. Is there a way to do this?

Is this tool a good choice for this kind of work, and is it going to be as much as I'm planning on using it for? Is it still possible to use this around the house (i.e. not just at a bench like it appears to be set up for)? Also, would you guys recommend picking up any of the bit sets listed on that page as well? I'm not really sure what I might need just from looking at those pictures (though I'm sure I will figure it out real quick!) so, would one (or a few) of those kits set me up pretty well from the get-go?

Thanks for any help here, as always!

A lot of Dremel sets come with a flexible extension shaft, and it's possible to buy a foot-operated variable speed attachment for them. That would give you the same setup as shown, but with a lot more long-term flexibility. I've been using Dremel rotary tools for about 25 years now, and I'm alway surprised at the new uses I find for them.

It's worth going down to your local hardware store to check out bit sets in person. Some sets are really cheap, and not worth any money whatsoever. It's best to see them in person and decide for yourself.

If you're going to try drilling holes precisely, then you will want to get either a micro drill press (such as the Micro-lux), or a drill-press kit for the Dremel. Milescraft makes one for about $40. You will have a lot of trouble drilling precise holes while holding the Dremel or a flexible shaft by hand. You will also want to make jigs to hold the work to the drill press table.

Fred

Years ago a flexible shaft made a lot of sense because
electric motors and motor controls were so heavy
and expensive. Also adding a flexible shaft does generate some
strange and difficult torque vectors and in my opinion
they are less safe. They do have their place but....

I got this one, its OK.
It has speeds much slower than any Dremel, but as I got more experience I use dremel 99% of the time. I use that tool for drilling pin holes in the scales now. The more expensive but better option is to get the same tool with speed adjusting knob instead of a pedal. Foredom and Wesheer, make them, Wescheer is cheaper and you can find them @ traditionalwoodworker.com

Interesting... its advertised as 500-22,000 rpm, and most dremels seem to be advertised as 5,000-20,000 rpm. Is it just slower than advertised or is there some inconsistency here?

As far as I could tell from previous threads, and general mention around the forums here, dremels are discouraged because of that rather high minimum speed. Supposedly they generate a lot of heat that can ruin the temper of a blade while buffing/polishing. The model I linked is also supposed to be a cheaper imitation of the Wecheer according to the person that linked it originally at least. (sorry can't seem to find the original thread) Their main issue being the variable speed and the ability to keep it on the low end, though.

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It's worth going down to your local hardware store to check out bit sets in person. Some sets are really cheap, and not worth any money whatsoever. It's best to see them in person and decide for yourself.

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Actually, I'm really just clueless about what types of bits would be useful to have and what I should have on hand to do all the types of work scale and razor restores might require. I know buffing wheels and sanding dremels but my knowledge is really very vague at this point. This is a very good piece of advice though, and one I hadn't considered (even if I wouldn't know one way or another at this point)

Those are two different tools , so the speed ranges are true.
As far as heat, if you have a jig it will take care of the heat dissipation away from the blade.
In my experience when sanding the blade does not heat, but then you polish it does.

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It has speeds much slower than any Dremel

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:gaah:Sorry, read this as "Its speed is much slower than any dremel" so please disregard that question about speed differences.

Anyways, my main question for you would be why the dremel over this guy? Is it an issue of flexible shaft vs. having the whole thing in your hand? Or is it a quality/consistency/convenience difference?

Also, is the Wecheer model really worth another $100 just for that nob?

Thanks for answering all my silly questions here, as you can probably tell I really know little about this stuff and I really appreciate it.

I would use neither unless you are very patient. Dremels kill blades, scales, and fingers very quickly... and I have rarely seen a Dremel-produced project that really is up to snuff...

...that said, if you don't have access to a shop or the space or money to buy some tools, if you are patient and work very slowly you can become quite proficient with a rotary tool.

Good luck!

The dremel is really only going to help you with putting a polishing compound on with a felt wheel. They are cool to have around the house and do come in handy.

It is hard to explain why they aren't the best for resto until you get that Dremel in your hands and go to work. When I was handsanding my first blade, I thought of the dremel and tried it. I almost ruined the razor.
I almost don't even want to use it to polish.

I am going to invest in a buffing wheel. This is what the guys that do the best work on here use.

Your not looking at that much more money for something that will give you better results with a ton of practice.

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Originally Posted by Patches

:gaah:Sorry, read this as "Its speed is much slower than any dremel" so please disregard that question about speed differences.

Anyways, my main question for you would be why the dremel over this guy? Is it an issue of flexible shaft vs. having the whole thing in your hand? Or is it a quality/consistency/convenience difference?

Also, is the Wecheer model really worth another $100 just for that nob?

Thanks for answering all my silly questions here, as you can probably tell I really know little about this stuff and I really appreciate it.

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Pushing the pedal to produce constant speed can be very uncomfortable. the Wesheer has a knob that sets the speed.

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Originally Posted by BKratchmer

...that said, if you don't have access to a shop or the space or money to buy some tools, if you are patient and work very slowly you can become quite proficient with a rotary tool.

Good luck!

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I don't, and this is the issue. I'm really more interested in the possibilities for scale work that the tool would open up though, which is why I haven't already jumped on the buffer idea because I'm certain those are the better tool for blade restoration. I can always hand sand/polish a blade back up to snuff, so any functionality there is just a bonus. Do you guys still think this would be good for working wood for scales or is there a better option?

On that note, is it reasonably possible to make scales without power tools? I imagine you could carve them out... I may have to investigate that route instead.

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Originally Posted by Patches

I don't, and this is the issue. I'm really more interested in the possibilities for scale work that the tool would open up though, which is why I haven't already jumped on the buffer idea because I'm certain those are the better tool for blade restoration. I can always hand sand/polish a blade back up to snuff, so any functionality there is just a bonus. Do you guys still think this would be good for working wood for scales or is there a better option?

On that note, is it reasonably possible to make scales without power tools? I imagine you could carve them out... I may have to investigate that route instead.

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You will, in my experience, get far better lines from hand-shaping than using a Dremel. You can see a lot of "wavy" scales that were shaped with a dremel tool.

I love my Dremel. If you don't have a workshop it is a great all-around tool. I used to use my Dremel to polish razors but I am going to abandon that for hand polishing or perhaps getting a buffer.

Always be careful about the speed and the heat -- as was mentioned already, it's very easy to ruin a blade with a Dremel. I don't have any fancy saws so I use the cutting wheels to do my rough cut on scale blanks, and then finish with hand sanding. I'm also interested in using the cutting wheel to help unpin old scales as in Undream's video.

If you're looking to get one strictly for razors, then I'd say hold off and look into getting some proper tools.

If you're looking to get a general tool for home use that could also help you with some razor stuff until you get proper tools, then I'd say go for it. I'd strongly suggest getting a corded unit with variable speed. Most of them come as starter kits with a few different bits. Cutting wheels, sanding drums and felt pads are what I use the most.

I've used dremels for years, and now am using an older model for blade restoration and scale fabrication. I looked into the new models and found they have tons of attachments like jig saws and router guides. More interestingly, they make a work stand for the dremel allowing it to function as a DRILL PRESS, as well as bench grinder/ buffer. The whole set up cost around $140, a very reasonable price in mind.

Dremels like all tools require a certain amount of practice and patience to effectively oporate. I doubt you would do much more damage with a dremel then you would do with the rotary tool you listed previously. As the saying goes, "it's not the tool, but the craftsman using it".

And one final thought to end my long speech. Dremels are very popular household tools, so you can be assured that you will have no problems find little bits and piece locally. The one you listed however seems a little bit less well known, so if you broke your chuck (the piece which holds to bits) you might have a little more trouble finding a replacement.

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Originally Posted by BKratchmer http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...s/viewpost.gif You will, in my experience, get far better lines from hand-shaping than using a Dremel. You can see a lot of "wavy" scales that were shaped with a dremel tool.

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I'm actually very much in favor of doing as much hand work as possible. I was thinking of using the dremel/rotary for the rough design then finishing by hand as well as drilling pin holes. If there are ways to do most of that by hand (which I'm sure there are since people did in fact manage to make things before power tools, despite how clueless I am about all of it) I'd love to hear what methods you guys know of or what hand tools would be suitable.

I am looking at this for general use as well as razors, as commiecat mentioned, so I think I'm set on getting SOME sort of rotary tool. Dremels are sounding like the tool of choice here. Those attachments freyguy mentioned look very attractive as well. A little research brings up pretty negative reviews on the drill press dremel makes as well as the jig saw type attachment. Can anybody vouch for those or are they junk? Because they do sound very useful.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I use that tool for drilling pin holes in the scales now.traditionalwoodworker.com

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I forgot to ask earlier, but does this mean you drill pin holes without a guide/drill press type tool? Can it be done easily enough this way?

Thanks again for the help so far guys. I'm going to take a cruise around the hardware store tomorrow and get a feel for some of this stuff if I can. I figure that'll help sort some of this out. Also, any opinions on Proxxon lines? The mixed reviews and reports of flimsy quality of some Dremel stuff has me a bit worried, the opinion of Proxxon stuff sounds a little better.

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Originally Posted by Patches

I'm actually very much in favor of doing as much hand work as possible. I was thinking of using the dremel/rotary for the rough design then finishing by hand as well as drilling pin holes. If there are ways to do most of that by hand (which I'm sure there are since people did in fact manage to make things before power tools, despite how clueless I am about all of it) I'd love to hear what methods you guys know of or what hand tools would be suitable.

I am looking at this for general use as well as razors, as commiecat mentioned, so I think I'm set on getting SOME sort of rotary tool. Dremels are sounding like the tool of choice here. Those attachments freyguy mentioned look very attractive as well. A little research brings up pretty negative reviews on the drill press dremel makes as well as the jig saw type attachment. Can anybody vouch for those or are they junk? Because they do sound very useful.



I forgot to ask earlier, but does this mean you drill pin holes without a guide/drill press type tool? Can it be done easily enough this way?

Thanks again for the help so far guys. I'm going to take a cruise around the hardware store tomorrow and get a feel for some of this stuff if I can. I figure that'll help sort some of this out. Also, any opinions on Proxxon lines? The mixed reviews and reports of flimsy quality of some Dremel stuff has me a bit worried, the opinion of Proxxon stuff sounds a little better.

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I made a guide, its 1x4x 1/2" aluminum block with #52 holes in it, works great.

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Originally Posted by BKratchmer

You will, in my experience, get far better lines from hand-shaping than using a Dremel. You can see a lot of "wavy" scales that were shaped with a dremel tool.

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That is when you go along the length of the blade, if you do it across like you would use a buffer , then you do not have wavy scratches. Still the best tool to use would be a buffer, no question about it.

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Originally Posted by Patches

I don't, and this is the issue. I'm really more interested in the possibilities for scale work that the tool would open up though, which is why I haven't already jumped on the buffer idea because I'm certain those are the better tool for blade restoration. I can always hand sand/polish a blade back up to snuff, so any functionality there is just a bonus. Do you guys still think this would be good for working wood for scales or is there a better option?

On that note, is it reasonably possible to make scales without power tools? I imagine you could carve them out... I may have to investigate that route instead.

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For start-up on scale making via hand and on a budget you can get by on a 4-5" vice, coping saw, and sand paper. You don't have to have power tools, they are just a luxury. I've ordered 1/8" thin stock wood over the internet & the "bay". Starting out using hand tools is , IMO, the best way to get into wood working anyway...like I said, power-tools are a luxury and are not a necessity when it comes to making scales. You will learn to make sanding blocks, how to use files, chisels, saws (pull saws are awesome!), & you will learn patience & creativity. I have screwed up quite a bit of work/wood from getting in a hurry, not to mention how quick a power tool can remove body parts much easier than wood (my finger is almost healed). Hand tools also store more conveniently, power tools take up much more room...

it depends how you'll be using it. if you have a dedicated bench that you will be working on with it all the time, and you're working on consistent stuff, and you have enough disposable income, i'd recommend a foredom. the flex shafts take some getting used to but i find they're easier to use and generally better made than any other brand of rotary tool.

if you need a lot of different tooling with a lot of attachments, don't have a ton of dough, need to be able to pick it up and use it around the house for other chores, i'd go dremel. they're not QUITE as awesome as a foredom, but they dont use a flex shaft, unless you get certain models, so they're easier to deal with, and they have a lot of attachments that can turn them into passable versions of other tools from routers to drill presses for very very small projects. i'd steer clear of the cordless, those batteries degrade pretty quickly, and in the newer models the switches (which you can't buy replacements for) tend to burn out pretty quickly. we use a lot of dremels at work and the model we have the best luck with is the 300 which i believe they're getting ready to phase out, meaning sales on it, and its accessories.

hope thats somewhat helpful.

[QUOTE=Patches;557884]I forgot to ask earlier, but does this mean you drill pin holes without a guide/drill press type tool? Can it be done easily enough this way?QUOTE]

I've used a dremel with a drill bit to make pin holes free hand, and had pretty good results. It takes a bit of practice, but it can certainly be done.

Based on my limited experience using a dremel to restore a razor and make scales, I can give you two general pieces of advice.

For your first custom scaling, spend as little money as possible on materials, because you will make mistakes. I made four sets of scales before I was happy with the shape and finish, and even then, when I stained them, all the imperfections in the wood and my sanding popped out. Thankfully I used paint sticks from home depot, which were free, and easy to work with. So no money was lost there. Here's the thread if you want to follow the process. http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...om-scales.html

As for a rotary tool for restoring a blade, I believe it can work, and work well, but not for your first restore. I started with a dremel on the W&B pictured above, but quickly found there were too much room for error. I just went to a jewelry supply shop and stocked up on sand paper in various grits. If you want to try a dremel for blade restoration, try it on a blade you don't really care about; at least until you've mastered the process.

Good luck and keep us posted

Alright, so I spent a an hour or so wandering around Home Depot today (looking very lost I'm sure). I came out with some basic Norton sandpaper up to 400 grit (not sure what a good finishing grit is, but according to Norton this is it), six paint sticks and a little coping saw with a few replacement blades since I'm sure I'll find a way to ruin at least the first one. I didn't know these little saws existed until shooter mentioned them, but they look like they're the perfect tool for getting a pretty accurate rough cut for scale blanks! Cutting out the blanks is one of the things I couldn't figure out how I'd do without some sort of jig-saw type tool, so its very nice to find there's a convenient $8 solution out there!

I have a little vintage French folding knife too, that should make a very nice carving knife (much thanks to some time on the bbw/coti combo.) I did, however forget to get a vice as it turns out. I'll have to try and dig something up or go back out and get one. I know chisels were mentioned too, but I don't even know where to begin there. Guess I have more homework to do.

I did try working the paint sticks a little already and these things seem awful prone to splintering. I can't complain for the price though, and I guess their finicky nature only makes them better for learning on. Cutting across the grain at an angle (45 degrees to the grain or so) with the knife produces a nice smooth cut, but cutting anywhere near with the grain causes it to splinter all over the place. I guess that's lesson one for carving then, huh? The coping saw on the other hand splinters this stuff all over the place, so I'll have to figure out how to make that work.

Anyways, I'm going to try and see how far I can get by hand tomorrow or so. I still don't know how I'll do pin holes, maybe the drill I can use will suffice, but I do want to try and learn things the hand way. That means the rotary will wait until I really know what I need and how I can use it. It still sounds like a very useful thing to have and I'll be getting one eventually. Maybe sooner rather that later if it becomes necessary for the pin holes after all (even if that's just a convenient excuse...). Anyhow, thanks for all the advice and guidance here, as always! I really appreciate it, you guys are always incredibly helpful!

There are quite a few guys here that use a regular hand drill to drill pin holes. Just keep the bit straight...the left and right are easy, it's the fore and aft that are more difficult to judge. Using whatever you have feeds the imagination and it's amazing what some guys can come up with.

BTW, if you had a vice for the scales, you could control the amount of pressure you are putting on the coping saw, thus less tearing. Most of us cut a little "off the line" and sand to finish dimensions. Keep in mind that you are more than likely working with softwood, pine more than likely, which is why a fresh blade bites a little harder & deeper. After this set, you may consider a hardwood that is 1/8" thick.

On the sandpaper, up to 400 grit is good for the shaping, but you will need to visit a automotive parts place like Auto Zone or O'Reillys for some finer sanding grits when you start to apply your finishes. I personally use some 220, lots of 400, some 600, lots of 1000, some 1500 & occasionally some 2000. I have several sanding blocks that I can use 1/4 sheet with made of some scrap pine, I'll shape them to where I can use them on the top radius where the razor will enter the scales so that I don't have a wavy (unless intended) line.

I look forward to hearing how your scales advance. Time to start considering a finish as well...

I have a similar rotary tool. I like it better than a regular dremel or speed control knob. Only thing I hardly use it.

For coping saw use of a bench pin is impossible to beat. look here if you need to know what it is. Basic Silversmithing - manual of techniques & tools

For me a file is better than sandpaper. Eventually I get to needing some sandpaper but not much. I am used to working without a vise. At times it would be nice to have one, i have a couple, but like the dremel not used much.

I have a bench top drill press but can do better or at least just as well and faster without it. Using an "egg-beater" drill I think it is easier to keep things straight than a brace or cordless/electric drill motor. Typically I lay out on both sides while the blank is rectangular and true. Drill in from both sides undersize and correct any error with a small reamer-like gimlet. usually my hole connects in the center of scales blank so the gimlet is a failsafe extra step. Then the rest of the shape is set by the pivot hole.

Another underused hand tool for this sort of work is the scraper. Card scraper. Scraping plane. probably more to be said .....

So, it took me a while to get around to this project and even longer to get around to posting about it! Here's what I've done with just a coping saw, some paint sticks, my very own home-made sanding block (seen below) and some sand paper (220-330 for shaping, 400, 600, 1500 to smooth it up):

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3482/img1213f.th.jpg

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2253/img1214d.th.jpg

Sorry about the photo quality there, but they're going on this guy:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4352/img1208h.th.jpg

So, the rotary tool was not at all necessary after all! I did have to borrow a drill for the pin holes however. It was surprisingly easy to do, and I'm very pleased with how it came out. Though, I did actually find an old adjustable speed rotary in my grandmother's garage that I've borrowed for future use, but thats another story.

For pinning I've got my washers, 1/16 in brass rod, peen hammer, brass and aluminum tubing for sleeving all ready to go. I just need to finish the scales and we're good to go. I've got several cans of different finish in the garage that I've tested and I think I have one that should work alright enough. I can't decide if I want to leave the wood as is or try to stain it however. I've been playing with whatever I can find (food coloring, etc.) to see if I can get any decent results.

Also, I've seen people using anvils or even hammers with little divots put into them for pinning. Is this necessary and if so how would you go about putting those in and in what size? Thanks for the help again guys, hopefully I should have this all finished up soon.

That looks awesome. Great work. How did the coping saw work on the paint sticks. I thought about using one for my paint stick scales, but thought the wood would just splinter.

Its true, the stuff splinters like mad. I found the trick was make sure there was plenty of support right next to where I was cutting, and to just let the saw do the work and not try and push my way through the wood. This meant I would hold it down firmly and cut just near where the edge of the work bench where I was holding it. One of the 'bench pins' someone mentioned seems like it would have been ideal for the job. Next up I'll have to try some hardwood of some sort though! I was thinking walnut or purpleheart but we'll see. Have to finish these first after all!

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Originally Posted by Patches

I was thinking walnut or purpleheart but we'll see. Have to finish these first after all!

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Walnut would be a good choice. It is a far more attractive AND easier to work wood than the yellow pine or poplar paint sticks are made from... although depending on where you got them, they could be hard or soft maple...

Anyway, walnut is great. In fact, if you want a blank to try, PM me. I've got a few. :D