Question regarding extra/stabilizing pins

I've been tweaking and making straight razor scales for a while and the pins have always been the major hurdle for me.

My question is about "extra" pins or "stabilizing pins". Say I've got a pair of 2 piece ivory scales, where each scale is made up of two seperate pieces of ivory. I'd like to put a pin in the corners where the two pieces join. This would be 2 pins per ivory piece, 4 pins per scale, 8 pins total.

The pins I've seen are always smaller than the pivot pin and rarely have any washer or collar. Is it safe to peen a pin like this? I don't want to risk putting a stabilizing pin in the end of a nice MOP scale if the process is to risky. Perhaps these pins are merely decorative and they aren't peened at all, just glued in and sanded flush?

Any advice or links would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt

Just a hunch but I do not believe that those pins are peened. Probably just glued.

Randy,

That's what I'm thinking, but then would they really stabilize anything? Hoping for a confirmation.

Just bumping this back to the top of the list. I'm hoping one of the serious restoration guys has a tip about these stabilizing pins.

Thanks,

Matt

Matt,
I actually do peen that pin, although it's not strictly necessary. Glue and friction would serve just as well to keep the stabilizing spacer in place. In some instances, it would probably be better not to peen it, depending on the material you're using. Of the razors I have with a factory 3rd pin, one is peened (a Henckels), and the others aren't. I usually use a stainless steel standoff, rather than a plastic pin or bead. As far as them actually stabilizing anything, they do. They stiffen the handle quite a bit, and give a rest for the shank of the blade.

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

They stiffen the handle quite a bit, and give a rest for the shank of the blade.

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I agree about stifening the hande, and adding more control to the open blade, but the third pin don't work as a blade (tang) rest.

Nenad

The third pin serves a couple of purposes.

• It keeps the blade from swinging all the way through the scales
• It keeps a workable dynamic between the blade and the scales goin' on when the blade has quite a bit of taper on the tang. It is mainly to prevent cracking the scales on those heavier blades when they are opened and closed. The third pin serves as a spacer to match the width of the blade at the point on the side of the scales where they match up together.

If the pin has been placed in the correct position, it will serve as a rest for the blade. You can see what I am talking about if you go to Making Scales 106 on my razor blog...

http://razortips.blogspot.com/

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The pins I've seen are always smaller than the pivot pin and rarely have any washer or collar. Is it safe to peen a pin like this?

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It is a customary way to attach pins to materials like ivory and mother of pearl in this manner. You just have to know what you are doing. The trick is to mushroom the head and not expand the pin as you are peening it. This is accomplished with light taps. Nothing harder than with the same force you would hit the end of your finger with the hammer.

Don't take offense, but judging from the way you asked the question, I would suggest you practice with some other materials first before you start with the ivory.

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Originally Posted by urleebird

The third pin serves a couple of purposes.
[*]It keeps the blade from swinging all the way through the scales

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Bill, I think this is not the case. The blade stops just like on every other blade, because it can't fit between the scales near the end spacer. At width of 1/8 inch and more at the spine it can't swing to the other side because no end spacer exceedes the width of 1/16 inch, and it's usualy less... I hope I got the inches right :shrug:

Nenad

When I'm making my scales, I place the spacer in such a way that the shank of the blade rests on it. Again, I don't suppose it's absolutely necessary, but I like it that way. So yes, on mine, the stabilizing spacer also functions as a blade stop/rest.

I got the impression that the OP was talking about pins to stabilize two piece scales to a liner, not a third pin.

Thats what I thought also.:shrug:

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Originally Posted by SharkHat

I got the impression that the OP was talking about pins to stabilize two piece scales to a liner, not a third pin.

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Originally Posted by SharkHat

I got the impression that the OP was talking about pins to stabilize two piece scales to a liner, not a third pin.

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Ok.

But I was mainly addressing the third pin thing because it was mentioned in subsequent posts and it also was a two-birds-with-one-stone comment.

On a two-piece set of scales with a liner, the pin at the top of one of those materials could (should) be strategically placed to serve both purposes... To secure the top half of the material to the liner, and to provide the proper spot for the third pin. I do not like leaving a pin at this juncture holding everything together with the tensile srength of the glue in the hole. There is too much movement and it will eventually give way. My knife scales are done with just epoxy, but I also have dovetailed bolsters and epoxy holding the material to the steel as well.

Nenad... the inches you quoted were close enough for me to understand the point you are trying to make. Partially my fault. I was in a hurry when I answered the post. I'm not necessarily talking about a 360 degree swing through. I'm referring to a swing of a 6/8 or larger blade swinging through the other side of the scales enough to expose the heel of the blade to cut the crap out of any passing flesh.

In addition to that, all razors don't have that 1/16 inch thickness butt spacer. Some are a little wider to help accommodate the thicker blades. 6 - 7 mm (1/4 inch) In some razors, the blade doesn't quite get close enough to the spacer either to keep the blade from travelling too far. Without that third pin, it is common for the wider blades heel to come shinin' through. I do have some razors that also will do the 360 degree thing also.

Randy... I promise never to change the OP again :p

Yes, the question was about extra stabilizing pins for multi panel scales, rather than the typical "third pin" frequently used on razors.

The pins I am referring to would only go through one scale, not the pair. They would help to stabilize the scale and hold the material on the backing. Are they necessary? Should they be peened or are they decorative. I see them mostly on multi panel mother of pearl or ivory scales, but they are not on all multi panel scales. I have never seen extra pins on single panel scales unless they are strictly decorative.

I understand what Bill says about an extra pin being used to stabilize material and be used as the "third pin", but what about a two piece scale that meets in the middle, or a 3-4 piece mother of pearl scale? Should I peen these?

Thanks for the tips guys.


Matt

Sorry I misunderstood the original question, Matt, and contributed to the muddying of the waters. To answer the question you actually asked: No, I wouldn't peen them, and if I did, it would be veeeeeerrry lightly. Scale material's pretty thin, and some substances (certain woods, ivory, and especially MOP) are prone to cracking with very little pressure. You might get away with peening the liner side (if using a liner), but I wouldn't risk the visible side. CA or epoxy should hold it in place just fine. What I often do it to roughen the pin up a bit with sandpaper before gluing it in place. Gives the glue something to hold on to, and lessens the odds of it working loose. Hope this helped a bit.

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Should I peen these?

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I would.

You just have to be careful. Put the tiniest, I say the tiniest, chamfer on the edge of the hole you drill. You are only trying to kill the sharp edge. I use the chamfer tool with my fingers and only make about 1 1/2 revolutions to do it.

Practice on some scrap first.


Go look at Making Scales 104 on my blog. http://razortips.blogspot.com/

None of those pins were peened with washers and the oosik is bone. I do the same thing to mother of pearl on knife scales.

OK, Bill, I see the point, I once managed to catch the blade when closed from between the scales when cleaning it closed, that's the main reason I changed the scales to bigger on my meathchopper... As for the scale pins Bill already answered that question, they are tapped, but when you use epoxy to glue the scales, the small pins are more decorative than usefull... Since Bill is modest guy, I'll post the pic from his website, showing something similar:

http://www.billysblades.com/images/T...0knife%203.jpg

Nenad

So you could peen any pins in without using washers? I like the clean look of the pins on that oosik piece. Thanks for the advice guys. I've got some 5 piece MOP/MOP scales that have been sitting idle because I haven't taken the next step. Now that I've got a few suggestions I'll give it a try. I suppose I'll try peening some glass sheets together. If I can do that without shattering them, the mop should be a breeze.

Thanks again,


Matt

One thing to think about (and this advice comes more from Ron Lake than from me): When pinning (and peening) fragile material (like MOP), use very soft pin material. He uses gold pins, I think. They spread faster, meaning you use very light hammer blows to spread them, lessening the chance of a fracture. Not sure about this, but it makes sense. I've never used gold for anything other than a wedding band, and I didn't make it. :D

We didn't use gold for our wedding bands, we used titanium. Anyone know a good source for straight up gold rod? That can't be easy to source, or cheap!

Thanks though, good idea. Certainly brass would be softer than most, though not as soft as gold.


Matt

you can use silver too, that's what I used for pinning my (now Jeff's) satinedge... It's soft too...

Nenad

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Originally Posted by superfly

you can use silver too, that's what I used for pinning my (now Jeff's) satinedge... It's soft too...

Nenad

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...and a helluva lot cheaper than gold.:D

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When pinning (and peening) fragile material (like MOP), use very soft pin material.

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Great point Joe. I forgot all about saying anything regarding soft peening material. My preference is silver and if I am out, I use aluminum. And I have to be in a pinch to use aluminum. It just doesn't quite measure up for some reason.

Didn't mean to give the appearance of stepping on you toes with the advice. I am not saying that you are not correct, I just prefer to do it the way I was talking about. Your way is definitely safer. Much safer. I was probably writing an answer about the same time you were. You hit enter first. Must be a premature edification thing... or you just type faster :D

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Originally Posted by urleebird

Great point Joe. I forgot all about saying anything regarding soft peening material. My preference is silver and if I am out, I use aluminum. And I have to be in a pinch to use aluminum. It just doesn't quite measure up for some reason.

Didn't mean to give the appearance of stepping on you toes with the advice. I am not saying that you are not correct, I just prefer to do it the way I was talking about. Your way is definitely safer. Much safer. I was probably writing an answer about the same time you were. You hit enter first. Must be a premature edification thing... or you just type faster :D

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Believe me, I didn't take it that way. Everyone develops their own style and methods. Different methods to achieve the same result. I feel comfortable pinning most anything, but MOP would definitely give me a long moment of pause. :hmmm: I'm glad to be here, where those different methods are discussed. Your method of pinning bolsters has changed the way I do my own. I'm always learning something. Don't worry about my toes...I walk on the bottoms; everybody else can walk on the tops.:D

Great thread Guys, I've learnt a lot too.

Gary

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Originally Posted by shavethebadger

Anyone know a good source for straight up gold rod? That can't be easy to source, or cheap!
Matt

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Gold rod is not hard to source but the price fluctuates with the gold index so there is no set price, you get the price when you order. Rio-Grande and most other jewellery suppliers will source it in various purities, profiles and sizes.