Can you checmically alter/affect temper?

Ended up getting a super POS razor in a package deal with some other items I wanted to currently using it as my sacrificial test subject trying different methods of rust removal.

It's been in a bath of 50/50 Acetone/ATF for 4 days with minimal results and my plan was to next try Berryman's Carb Dip as I have it sitting on the shelf. My question on that is whether I could affect the temper chemically without knowing it. This razor is well beyond any recover being heavily rusted with large chunks out of it so no way I'm going to be able to test hone/use it so simply looking for effective rust removal. My last try will be Citric Acid Bath which I believe will yield the best results but, if reasonable/for information purposes only, would like to try the Berryman's as it sure works wonders on gunked up and beyond nasty carbeurators.

Any ideas or experience using Carb Dip or other chemicals and whether it could have a reaction that would affect temper?

Thanks in advance for any/all information!

Shawn
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I am not positive Shawn, a PM to Mike Blue on here would be best, he has forgot more about metal then most have ever known :)

Unless there is actually metal loss I don't think so, but I could be wrong :p


I use Brake Cleaner to clean off Polishing Compound as I buff razors as it cools them fast, and doesn't allow cross comtamination of my wheels... (No Scales)

You could go uber cheap, and put it in a container w/ about 1L of coca cola...if you remember high school chemistry, it'll eat enamel over night almost..lol You asked for suggestions, boy you got it!

As far as chemically altering? I would think anything that was strong enough to affect the temper would surely eat through the steal first? Could be wrong, but a strong acid or exothermal substance would surely distort or damage the molecular bonds if it was strong enough to ruin the tempering. Mike! calling MIKE!!! :popcorn:

Temper is more of a temperature thing, acetone or ATF are not going to change the temper of the blade. You could eat away at a blade with strong acid or base, but you would not be changing the temper.

Charlie

Thanks for the reply of metal wisdom Charlie

I'm here. Charlie's right, drawing the temper back too far will require temperature, usually above 400F, but the exact temperature will depend entirely on the steel. If we're talking about an ordinary carbon steel, as long as you stay below 400F it should not lose any hardness.

That's how some of the chemical bluing is done and the temperatures are held at or below 300F so the risk of affecting the hardness of the steel is nearly non existent.

If you treat this with a steel eating acid, whatever steel is left that's clean should be the same hardness you started out with. You are only removing superficial oxides (rust - crud) anyhow.

DISTRACTION alert: You could investigate hydrogen embrittlement. As acids are Hydrogen linked to some other compound. Hydrogen can make steel more brittle. And hydrogen is small enough to find its way between the iron carbide lattices.

Prahston: I posted that distraction for those folks here that I know will not sleep well until they have chewed this mental beef jerky down to the atomic level. This does not affect your concern about your blade. OTOH if you are easily distracted by the distraction, you are very likely to find yourself in good company. ;)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I use Brake Cleaner to clean off Polishing Compound as I buff razors as it cools them fast, and doesn't allow cross comtamination of my wheels... (No Scales)

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Eye protection and mask too right ;) that stuff is toxic!

Mike Blue
Thank you for posting this information about hardness and temperature. There is a lot of information on the ww web that says you can reduce hardness of a blade by "baking" it at 200°F.

Thanks,
D

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Originally Posted by dfafs

...There is a lot of information on the ww web that says you can reduce hardness of a blade by "baking" it at 200°F.

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No problem. If someone was confused about 200 Centigrade that's enough to reduce hardness in some steels. Here's where I go for a quick look when I'm away from my hardcover books on heat treatment. Online Materials Information Resource - MatWeb

As long as you know what the material is, this provides the basic temperatures and all sorts of other goodies, you need to know.

Thanks for all the info! Based on this information I did a pre-soak test of 4 hours in the Berryman's on half the blade and the results were promising enough I disassembled the razor full and she is no fully submerged for 24 hours. I took pics throughout so I'll post another thread later. :D

Oh yeah, the Hydrogen Embrittlement Distraction was well above my head! :D That will remain food for thought way down the road. My Berryman's is newer but I'd heard stories about the Old Stuff you can't get anymore and how if you left things too long or put the wrong parts in they were just, 'gone'... That line of thinking got me concerned about things I could not see like Temper so thought I'd better ask as I didn't find any references in a Search.

I am not concerned about what happens to this particular razor but I do want to learn from it what I can. An interesting theory I am going to look at if the 24 hour soak works is whether I can use just ad drop of Berryman's on one piece of isolated rust on an otherwise viable blade.

Thanks so much for the Info!

My bet is that your POS razor had a POS tempering process! :)

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

My bet is that your POS razor had a POS tempering process! :) Regards, Neil

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+1 The simplest explanation should always rise to the top.

I don't know 'what' happened to it but there was heavy metal loss, tons of rust all over the blade as well as the inside of the scales... Looks to have had prolonged exposure to water or to have been put away in plastic soaking wet for a long time.

I should have included a picture for reference. This is what the razor looked like before I started playing with it:

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

+1 The simplest explanation should always rise to the top.

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Thank you Occam

Charlie

Thanks to Mike for the distraction. Food for thought. The remedy took a bit to track down.

Jeff

Hey

Something to be careful of is that chemicals can precipitate under the oxidation layers, they are very fine layers. If you are going to be going into lots of different solutions with the same razor you want to be careful that you give it a good wash with clean water to get as much of that stuff off before going into the next solution.

Carl

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Originally Posted by Prahston

Ended up getting a super POS razor in a package deal with some other items I wanted to currently using it as my sacrificial test subject trying different methods of rust removal.

It's been in a bath of 50/50 Acetone/ATF for 4 days with minimal results and my plan was to next try Berryman's Carb Dip as I have it sitting on the shelf. My question on that is whether I could affect the temper chemically without knowing it. This razor is well beyond any recover being heavily rusted with large chunks out of it so no way I'm going to be able to test hone/use it so simply looking for effective rust removal. My last try will be Citric Acid Bath which I believe will yield the best results but, if reasonable/for information purposes only, would like to try the Berryman's as it sure works wonders on gunked up and beyond nasty carbeurators.

Any ideas or experience using Carb Dip or other chemicals and whether it could have a reaction that would affect temper?

Thanks in advance for any/all information!

Shawn
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