3K Bevel Set, for Novice Honers?

In another thread, there was a video of Mastro Livi, (See Video, post 638) restoring one of his razors, a client complained would chip after honing on a Coticule.

Livi said it appeared the owner used a 1K stone to bevel set and a 1K was too coarse a stone. He recommended a minimum of 3K for bevel setting, and did so to reset the bevel after regrinding.

While a bevel can easily be set with a 3, 4 or 5k stone, I have always believed, novice honers edge problems, are a result of not fully setting the bevel, or too much pressure on low grit stones and or Diamond plates causing chipping on the edge. The issue is pressure with low grit.

So would recommending a 3 or 4K in place of bevel setting on a 1K, result in better success for novice honers? It is not many more laps over a 1K.

There is nothing wrong with using a 1k, at times with restoration I go to a 600 stone, the issue is pressure. A 3 or 4k, even with pressure will not leave as deep a stria pattern and chipped edge. It will make a keener straighter bevel set edge.

What are your thoughts? Perhaps Mr. Livi, is not just another pretty face?

It really depends on the grind and the steel of the individual razor. Some razors would be a nightmare to hone on a 3k. I can set most bevels easily with a Chosera 600 but a few will become horribly sawtoothed.

Trial and error, followed with experience, will dictate what hone will work with what razor.

Good post Marty! That's the reason I usually set the bevel profile using moderate pressure (or pre-set the bevel) with a Barber Hone (specifically the Carborundum #102 Razor Hone), and then go to the 'softer' Naniwa Superstones using very little pressure to finish the 'Set'. I'll use either the 1000, 3000, or the 5000 depending on the blade. YMMV but it works for me!

I also had problems with a livi chipping on a 1k.. The person your talking about mayb one of the best coticule honers out there and has tons of coticule experience. And knows exactly what he is doing.. I have also honed a lot of razors and by no means am i pro but the razor would not hold an edge. I sent it out to pro honers to see if it was me and the edge would just crumbled Livi took my razor back rehoned it sent it back to me and guess what the edge crumbled again.. Magnification showed chips.. Sent me a replacement razor same problem.. A 1k is a perfectly suited hone to set a bevel on.. And at the 1k stage I use a lil more pressure than I would at the higher stages.. I have honed the gold dollar on 1k with pressure no chips no crumbled edge..

Bevel setting with a 3k will make no difference imo. Whats so special about it that a smooth stone like a chosera 1k is too toothy? That video didn't pass the smell test to me. Excessive pressure? Sure, but reasonable use of a 1k should not cause chipping, something else is going on imo.

Experienced at honing is one aspect

However without a doubt in my mind, after attending multiple meets and having quite a few novice honers meet with me to learn, I firmly believe the biggest disconnect is from what we type here and what the new guys perceive..

The biggest mis-perception is with pressure, and how it is used
The second biggest problem I see is between Edge Restoration and Honing,, We don't emphasize the difference enough on here between setting up a New Dovo and Setting up a 200 YO W&B that was sanded and polished..

We call both a "Bevel Set" and leave it to the newbs to try and understand the difference..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

We call both a "Bevel Set" and leave it to the newbs to try and understand the difference..

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This is so as not to deprive them of a challenge

I have a 1K and a 3K. Now i'll buy a 2K and i'll try all three on my next honing day to se what happens.
I think i'll going crazy!!! :banghead:

And the thing is: i started with Straight razor to save money, and i never in my entire live have used so much money as now to shave my face. Cheers :beer1: to all AD we have.

Why would a blade's edge crumble/chip on a 1K hone unless there was something wrong with the blade's steel?

Bob

Too much pressure at low grits.

Not intended to be a beat-up Livi thread.

Fact, Novice honers have a problem with pressure and low grit stones resulting in a chipping edge.

Would eliminating the low grit (1K) stone, solve many of the novice’s issues of pressure? A 3 or 4K stone will leave much shallower stria and fat less chipping.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Too much pressure at low grits.

Not intended to be a beat-up Livi thread.

Fact, Novice honers have a problem with pressure and low grit stones resulting in a chipping edge.

Would eliminating the low grit (1K) stone, solve many of the novice’s issues of pressure? A 3 or 4K stone will leave much shallower stria and fat less chipping.

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Not meant as a beat up Livi comment.

I have used a 1k Naniwa to set a bevel on a few beat up old razors of different makes from different countries and never noticed a problem like that. When I say beat up I mean chipped edges and/or corrosion on the bevel. I am most certainly a novice at honing. Only have one razor from spanking new and that has never needed to be put on a 1K hone though.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Would eliminating the low grit (1K) stone, solve many of the novice’s issues of pressure? A 3 or 4K stone will leave much shallower stria and fat less chipping.

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That would bring to the surface the other problem that new honers have :(

Inconsistent strokes, the higher the grit the more laps must be done the more laps done the more chance of them screwing up one of those strokes and eliminating all the work they have done

Basically, regardless of the way they climb the ladder they have to set their feet on each rung, trying to shortcut or skip steps creates problems..

Or even more simply put "The more ya hone,, the better you hone" :)

Great idea Marty. Going up a k or 2 can help in certain situations. New to honing or not some blades need a different approach. Like if the bevel didn't need to be reset in the first place. And if done improperly on a 1k would only add to the problem. Same in the case of bad steel from polishing heat, bad temper or what ever.

Then there is the pressure thing. How do you describe pressure ? The best I can come up with is,,,stack 4 or 5 quarters and then place your hone on them dead center. Run your blade across the hone without tipping it and you have some light pressure. Really light use dimes :<0)
A friend told me he was advised to hold the hone with one finger under the middle and run your razor across that without knocking the hone off it. A little scary for me to pass along. I picture the broken hone thread being revived like never before.

When I first started honing I would take a razor in unknown condition and start it on the 4k. I only had 3 stones then so if it didn't improve on the 4k I knew which way to go. If it cut water all the way across and felt good I would move up to my finisher the 8k. Another good reason to stick with the basics and then move into the world of multiple choices and different finishes after you master those.

An experienced honer can thumb pad an edge and give it a look see with the Lupe and tell which hone to start out on. Running into bad steel may change that decision but it's a starting point chosen with experience. He also knows what light pressure really is.

Mike has taught me the ways of the Carborundum and Frictionite but I still start a bevel on a 1k until I run into problems. With a large pile of work on my bench I may change that routine once I get to honing them all up. ( pre bevel set ) ? Sounds like another step to add to the routine. Some things just have to be learned/relearned the hard way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Too much pressure at low grits.

Not intended to be a beat-up Livi thread.

Fact, Novice honers have a problem with pressure and low grit stones resulting in a chipping edge.

Would eliminating the low grit (1K) stone, solve many of the novice’s issues of pressure? A 3 or 4K stone will leave much shallower stria and fat less chipping.

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I would say the pressure problem for noobs would be across the board with all hones not just 1 k.

It's a matter of horses for courses with stone choice. A 3k stone can't do what is required of a 320 grit stone & vice versa, however, with a setup like Livi's, a 320 grit would be redundant as it seem 1k is also for him.

The 3k Livi used to reset the bevel on that razor was ample for that job. The blade was new & needed minimal grinding for restoration.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I would say the pressure problem for noobs would be across the board with all hones not just 1 k.

It's a matter of horses for courses with stone choice. A 3k stone can't do what is required of a 320 grit stone & vice versa, however, with a setup like Livi's, a 320 grit would be redundant as it seem 1k is also for him.

The 3k Livi used to reset the bevel on that razor was ample for that job. The blade was new & needed minimal grinding for restoration.

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Even if a blade need not be taken down to 1K for a bevel set what harm should it do besides removing more steel than is really necessary? I still don't see why and edge should crumble but whatever.

Bob

I agree that it shouldn't, but if the steel is too brittle and it does crumble, then you've got to roll with it and hone with a higher grit.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Even if a blade need not be taken down to 1K for a bevel set what harm should it do besides removing more steel than is really necessary? I still don't see why and edge should crumble but whatever.

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I agree. As I said, the problem is in excess pressure.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I agree that it shouldn't, but if the steel is too brittle and it does crumble, then you've got to roll with it and hone with a higher grit.

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If the steel is too brittle it is likey to chip out even at 8k so a fine stone is no guarantee of fixing, say, an untempered blade.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

It's a matter of horses for courses with stone choice. A 3k stone can't do what is required of a 320 grit stone & vice versa, however, with a setup like Livi's, a 320 grit would be redundant as it seem 1k is also for him.

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I saw that video where Livi repaired that blade and said that a 3k bevel set was preferable. Just happens that when I bought my Choseras I included a 3k in the equation. Was doing 1,3,5,10, on razors where I was starting from scratch, but after seeing the video I did a couple of bevel sets beginning at 3k. Worked fine. OTOH, years ago it was common, and maybe still is, for those who had the 4/8, but no 1k, to set bevels on a 4k Norton.

Thing is it takes longer than on a 1k. Maybe a lot longer, maybe not that much, depending on the blade, the hand on the hone. I'm going to keep on beginning at the 3k just because I have it, and I like to experiment. The 1k Chosera is efficient and it is the best bevel setter I've used compared to Norton, Naniwa ss, Shapton Pro 1ks. All are good but the Chosera was better in terms of speed and smoothness (referring to comparable 1ks).

As anyone who has honed a few razors knows, there are times when a 600 is in order, other times when a 1k is preferable as a starting point. All depends on the condition of the edge from the git-go. The neat thing, for me, about the Livi video, was that it just hadn't occurred to me to start at 3k for edges that were 'good' enough. I was so set on 'start at 1k' that it was virtually my default mode once I had one to use.

The moral of the story being old dogs can learn new tricks. :)

I think what Livi may have meant was what Glen said, and that particular razor did not need a 1k bevel set, the bevels were already flat, just not meeting. There is a big difference in setting a bevel on a buffed razor and one that need a touch up. He just polished the bevels and brought them together.

I have noticed several honing threads were guys are having trouble with custom razors and razors known to be hard, chipping. This I suspect is a result of a 1K and pressure. Steel does have a memory and even if you polish out the stria, the steel is still weakened and will chip, maybe later. Hard steels respond well to higher grits and low pressure, even if it takes a bit longer. And really how long does it take to do 100 laps?

For me it is much like sanding where I learned a long time ago to let the sandpaper do the work, if it is not getting results then, you need a lower grit, like what Jerry was talking about.

When hand sanding I start with 600 then go from there, 600 stria is easy to polish with 1k paper.

If I get a hard razor that chips I lightly breadknife with a 1200 diamond file and take it to my Norton 4k and seal the deal.

I think it would be harder for new guys to get into trouble with a higher grit stone. A 1K is like putting a kid in a hot rod, you know what’s going to happen.

When my son learned to drive we bought him a new Hyundai, he still crashed it 3 times, none of which involved a hospital.

FWIW, I set a bevel on a mint Iwasaki western last night using a Yaginoshima asagi. For the no-nat guys thats like bevel setting on a 12k.
As we've said, horses for courses.

When I started out all I had was the Norton 4/8 and I set many a bevel with that 4K and it worked fine. Looking back now that I have more hones and I have a Norton 1K I don't think I would start at the 4K again for true bevel setting. It took a lot of time on the 4K and I don't think I saw any advantages over the 1K at least on the razors I worked on.

Imo a bevel is a bevel. 1k 4k, 8k etc. We could set em on a cnat too. As was said reasonable use of a 1k stone shouldnt create issues.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

The 3k Livi used to reset the bevel on that razor was ample for that job. The blade was new & needed minimal grinding for restoration.

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What grit do you think the belt was that he removed the chips with?

Actually, I believe much of the problem with new hard custom razors chipping, is from aggressive belts with too much pressure.

Once these razors are honed a few times and enough steel is removed, the chipping stops.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

What grit do you think the belt was that he removed the chips with?

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The video is on youtube . You would likely get a more accurate answer there than my guess. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Actually, I believe much of the problem with new hard custom razors chipping, is from aggressive belts with too much pressure.

Once these razors are honed a few times and enough steel is removed, the chipping stops.

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Coarse belts maybe, temper issues on the thinnest part of the blade(the edge)maybe.