Thread: The Transition Stone

The Transition Stone may be the most important stone in a progression.

I brought this up in another thread and there seemed some interest so, as not to completely hi-jack the old thread, I am posting a new thread, in the Advanced Honing Thread Forum.

Background
What started this for me was, I noticed lately several threads from new honers having issues with the quality of their edges and it always revealed, an incomplete set edge, where a reset of the bevel and re-honing progression resolved the issue. This past weekend I mentored 4 new guys, were each honed at least 2 razors and I repeatedly witnessed the same thing occur, firsthand.

Now I know they properly set the bevels on 1k stones, a Norton, Chosera, Super Stone and a Nubatama, where I inspected the edges before they moved on, so I can’t blame the bevel setting stone, because it occurred with each brand. No diamond plates were used on any of the edges, a common cause of chipping.

When they moved to the 4k, the edges would fall apart, sometimes at the 8k. We also were using a Norton, Super Stone and Nubatama 4ks with the same results.


Problem
What I think is happening is the rough 1k edge either breaks off, is not fully honed sharp, (not enough Pressure or sufficient laps on the 4k), and later breaks off sometimes at the 8k, or the stone is too aggressive and leaves a new ragged edge or the honer is using too much pressure, or the 4K stones were too aggressive or not aggressive enough to reduce 1k stria and hone the edge.
The big variable and equalizer is/are Pressure and experience. We often say no or lite pressure to hone razors, but that is just not true. And the one thing I have witnessed firsthand, with novice honers is they don’t use enough pressure, especially in the 1k. We do need pressure, it is a matter of the right amount and knowing your stones. Novice honers do not have that luxury.

Solution
One solution is the 2-3k Transition stone or an aggressive stone like the Nubatama 4k. Some have said they use the 2k with good results. And what I believe is happening is it makes a good transition from shaping to polishing.

Accepting that the traditional bevel set stones (800-1k stone) shape/set the bevel, (Set the Angle, flattening the Bevel & straighten the edge). The next stone (The Transition Stone) does double duty reducing the 1k stria while enhancing/straightening the edge. The 2 & 3k stones are aggressive enough to do both, (as is traditional, 3-5K stones, in experienced hands). A side problem/issue is the variation of grit rating and that all 4k’s are not alike, in grit and binder.

Or bevel set on a higher grit stone, a 4k. Most 4K are more than aggressive enough to easily set a bevel, especially if you are not starting from a bread-knifed edge where a bevel already exist and just needs re-shaping or bring to meeting.

Conclusion

So while we often sneak up on finishing an edge with smaller grits jumps, perhaps the smaller steps should be in the early stages and a 1,2,4, 8K progression may yield better edges, especially for the novice honers.
Large jumps are easily made with 8-20/30k Stones with good results. Perhaps the low end is where the smaller steps need to be taken. And maybe this is where the Pyramid technique developed, because in many ways, this is what it resolves.

This is what we do with natural slurry stones and very small step progression, with excellent results.
For the novice honer this may be an easy solution to a persistent problem.

What are your thoughts?

For some razors, that is a good answer.
More than one of the honing Illuminati use a small jump between hones all the way up. One of my students has been shaving and honing his own razors for many years. When i gave him a Hindustan (~6K±) it filled in a gap for him and he said that his edges improved a great deal.

We have the advantage of good magnification and it should be in play from the bevel set onward. A more lengthwise stroke for the last few on the bevel setter can reduce some of the problems as it removes the tops to nearer the valleys of the scratches,( Elliptical honing, the fancy endings of the stroke with a lengthwise fillip at each end, all do some of this. Lengthwise honing is for the last few strokes of a grit and at very low pressure.


~Richard

As a long time fan of 2k hones, I've been thinking of trying out some 1.5k hones.

I quite enjoyed the other thread.

As I mentioned, I seem to get a bevel set (cutting arm hair easily, TPT), progress to the Norton 4k, and would after finishing on the 4k, lose the arm hair cutting and there would be no "gripping" feeling on the thumb pad test.

I invested in the Naniwa 3/8, and again, while not as pronounced, the dilemma for me has always been consistency and when to move on to the next hone. My edge would look good in the loupe, easily cut arm hairs, grip my thumb pad, and would frequently disappear altogether, or be degraded to various degrees. The just over a dozen razors I've done to completion have been nice, but taking 4-6 hours, sometimes multiple sessions of that, is clearly indicating I'm missing something.

The Naniwa 10mm 2k is very reasonably priced, so I'm hoping further practice, and smaller steps at the beginning will help me understand how to achieve consistency.

Great thread - thanks.

Consistency is the hard part. taking the time and looking at the edge often and seeing what you last did pays dividends. For me too long between honings means almost a whole new learning curve.

A good way to check a bevel edge at the early stages of honing is to rotate the blade around its long axis with the edge away from you and a bright light source on the other side and watch the reflection. A missed bevel area will shine in a different manner to the rest of that bevel. Works also between hone grits. A magnifier is still a good investment to see chipping or really small imperfections.

I've been at this for a few years and am still a newb and learning from a few really good honing people!
~Richard

Originally Posted by Geezer

Consistency is the hard part. taking the time and looking at the edge often and seeing what you last did pays dividends. For me too long between honings means almost a whole new learning curve.

A good way to check a bevel edge at the early stages of honing is to rotate the blade around its long axis with the edge away from you and a bright light source on the other side and watch the reflection. A missed bevel area will shine in a different manner to the rest of that bevel. Works also between hone grits. A magnifier is still a good investment to see chipping or really small imperfections.

I've been at this for a few years and am still a newb and learning from a few really good honing people!
~Richard

Yes - the loupe is a great tool, and inspecting the edge helps enormously, as Lynn puts it, "pocketknife" sharp, easily cutting arm hairs, and gripping the thumb pad. All that I can achieve on the 1k bevel set, it seems that as soon as I move to the next stone, the edge degrades. Another member here who is local to me suggested it may be the higher grit hone is removing the "teeth" on the edge; hence, not getting the same TPT results, but I find I can also no longer cut arm hair.

I've always made it past this stage, but it is often then having to go back to the 1k and start again, so when I do get the the proper results after the 3/4k, I have no idea how or why I got the results that time as opposed to the last time, to me, it appears I'm doing nothing differently, when obviously I am.

That's why I think this thread is excellent for beginners like me, I'm hoping that inserting smaller steps will make the transition easier, but then again, I feel I'm falling prey to the, "It's not me, it's just I need more hones/tools"....

Originally Posted by Phrank

I quite enjoyed the other thread.

As I mentioned, I seem to get a bevel set (cutting arm hair easily, TPT), progress to the Norton 4k, and would after finishing on the 4k, lose the arm hair cutting and there would be no "gripping" feeling on the thumb pad test.

I invested in the Naniwa 3/8, and again, while not as pronounced, the dilemma for me has always been consistency and when to move on to the next hone. My edge would look good in the loupe, easily cut arm hairs, grip my thumb pad, and would frequently disappear altogether, or be degraded to various degrees. The just over a dozen razors I've done to completion have been nice, but taking 4-6 hours, sometimes multiple sessions of that, is clearly indicating I'm missing something.

The Naniwa 10mm 2k is very reasonably priced, so I'm hoping further practice, and smaller steps at the beginning will help me understand how to achieve consistency.

Great thread - thanks.

I've lost my edge like you a few times after the bevel setting stone . I've realised that it happens when I apply pressure or to much pressure on the mid level stones.

Interesting thread. Just as a comment, my go-to bevel setter is a Shapton Pro 2k. It would be interesting to see someone else forego the 1k althogether and start from a set bevel from a 2k. My bevel set test off the 2k is the cherry tomato test.

My "tweener" is a suita, about 5k synth equivalent, and on slurry it's fast enough to be a capable bevel setter if there aren't problems that need correcting. It is excellent at removing coarser marks and I feel the slurry helps hone off those pesky edge issues like wire edges, fins, etc. after this stone, I do a half stropping and test with HHT. The edge should cut hair cleanly at this point, if it doesn't, the edge is not ready to progress up the food chain. I get out the loupe and start looking for problems that need correcting.

Honing a razor is all about "pressure management" from the shape of the edge to the prevention of wires and foils and finishing the edge.

Cheers, Steve