Actually no it is not my "view" or "opinion" it goes back longer then you have been on SRP,, so you are unaware of the back storyQuote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
I just gave it to you
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Actually no it is not my "view" or "opinion" it goes back longer then you have been on SRP,, so you are unaware of the back storyQuote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
I just gave it to you
Probably thats the issue coming up here. I dont care what happened between someone or SRP in the past with that guy....thats between him and those guys and others have to deal with if they have issues....Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
That discussion doesnt gives us any additional useful input....sorry...
What is the nature of your (Glenn) disagreement with his evaluation? That he hasn't honed enough razors before taking pictures?
Even though it does take a little while (as with anything) to learn a skill or technique this is just honing after all. This isn't a "profession" even though some may do it on a commercial basis.
I cut my own grass and I see some people doing it commercially but I don't know that they are any "better" at cutting grass than I am. If I took some high magnification pictures of cut grass and made some comments are they to be ignored because I'm not a "professional" grass cutter?
I think the pictures are interesting. No one needs them to hone a razor but it is interesting to have a picture in your mind as to what the edge looks like as you go down the progression.
I have a 60x to 100x cheap microscope. It has limited use but it is useful. I don't have a set-up like he has so his pictures are interesting. I don't really see what there is to object to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbryan
I have one question...
Do you believe that the edge would look the same under an SEM between a New SR user that was honing for the first time as compared to somebody that had been honing hundreds of different SR's for many years ????
Same Hone Same razor would you see a difference ?????
Posed and answered, and objectively proved at nearly every SR meet,,, the edges don't even look the same under loupes and cheap Chinese USB's
I'll ask again, what conclusions has he come to that you disagree with?Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
His bevel seems to be set. I don't know that it would be any different if he had set a bevel many times. I don't know that he hasn't set quite a few bevels.
Is this his first time? What is it about his pictures that you are objecting to?
I haven't studied the article in great detail. I think he said something along the lines that the 1K does the sharpening and that after the 4k it's just about the polishing.
That's repeated daily on this forum isn't it?
Ahhhhhh and there is the catchQuote:
Originally Posted by gcbryan
See I never said I disagreed with any of it, in fact much of it I agree with
BUT
That does not make the conclusions correct, any conclusions are suspect whether you agree or not
Observe
Same piece of Chalk
Same piece of concrete
Different pressure
Newbie Honer Heavy hands
Attachment 253046
Experienced honer understanding pressure and torque
Attachment 253045
Get it now ???
Just because they are great pics and you might agree with the conclusions does not make it correct :(
The scratches in his pictures should be smaller than 1/10 grit particle size?
Edit: that was a serious question. Scratch size/depth seems to be one of the things you disagree with that blog about, so I'd like to know your opinion. Just innocent curiosity.
I get that you question his ability/expertise. I don't know the guy so I haven't formed any opinion on that. I'm genuinely interested in any problems/contradictions/inaccuracies you may have noticed if you'd care to explain why a given thought path or conclusion is incorrect. The ultimate goal in my opinion is being able to learn something from any given situation so I'm all ears. After you've finished cleaning all that yellow chalk off your garage floor, of course. :)
Haha...you are a tough audience. :) I don't think this was intended to be a scientific, peer reviewed paper was it? It was a blog, much like this forum. If someone went to that much effort and went into that degree of detail the bottom of that page would be lit up with "likes" and "Thank Yous" and you would probably be one of them, no? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Anyway, do we know that this guy just started honing the day he decided to do this test?
He has stated that he wants to publish, and he has also admitted that has no experience honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbryan
This is where the issue is. Lots of new folks that do not uite understand honing, and visuals stumble upon this blog, and see nice pics and "oh cool pics, done with an SEM, the guy must know what he is talking about". Except no one has an idea what a properly finished edge looks like at that level of magnification. So how can one make any conclusions that are of any reasonable value knowing the facts as we know them? We know, from experience, that honing a few razors, does not make one proficient in making razors really shave ready. We also can ask quite a few questions about how controlled all the set up and the process of preparation of the edge was to ask for some sort of statistical confirmation of the results. We can ask a lot of question about the scientific method used for the investigation. I can tell you that there were non and the conclusions are basically theoricrafting.
I am going to state from memory a part of a scentence on the Jnat slurry test "red kiita slurry" that right there is one single enxample of the level of knowledge of the OP.
This whole blog essentially is a logical fallacy, because there is no proof contrary to the statements made.
Here is an example:
Quote:
Description of Burden of Proof
Burden of Proof is a fallacy in which the burden of proof is placed on the wrong side. Another version occurs when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B. A common name for this is an Appeal to Ignorance. This sort of reasoning typically has the following form:
Claim X is presented by side A and the burden of proof actually rests on side B.
Side B claims that X is false because there is no proof for X.
In many situations, one side has the burden of proof resting on it. This side is obligated to provide evidence for its position. The claim of the other side, the one that does not bear the burden of proof, is assumed to be true unless proven otherwise. The difficulty in such cases is determining which side, if any, the burden of proof rests on. In many cases, settling this issue can be a matter of significant debate. In some cases the burden of proof is set by the situation. For example, in American law a person is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty (hence the burden of proof is on the prosecution). As another example, in debate the burden of proof is placed on the affirmative team. As a final example, in most cases the burden of proof rests on those who claim something exists (such as Bigfoot, psychic powers, universals, and sense data).
Examples of Burden of Proof
Bill: "I think that we should invest more money in expanding the interstate system."
Jill: "I think that would be a bad idea, considering the state of the treasury."
Bill: "How can anyone be against highway improvements?"
Bill: "I think that some people have psychic powers."
Jill: "What is your proof?"
Bill: "No one has been able to prove that people do not have psychic powers."
"You cannot prove that God does not exist, so He does."
I wouldn't argue with any of that and for that matter I generally ignore any test or thought process that tried to prove the non-existence of something. I would say this, however, and I feel like these are fairly safe assumptions regarding the images taken.
If we assume his honing skill is average or below average then that razor when properly honed on those stones;
would probably have scratches not deeper than those shown, relative to the grit stone used
would probably have a less pronounced sawtooth edge than that shown
and would probably end with an apex width the same or narrower than that shown.
Those are the only conclusions I've drawn & they're still only probabilities.
Nothing is absolute of course, but I'd be amazed if an expert honemeister with decades of experience would pay for access to an sem and spend weeks studying a hundred different razors at every stage on multiple stone combinations and publish a detailed study, which still may or may not be considered authoritative and definitive. :shrug:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWeir
You miss the point also
I does not matter whether I agree or disagree,,, the data is suspect therefore any conclusions are also suspect even if I agree 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWeir
There was the Vorhaven study, but we do not know the Honing experience level there, so you have to kinda read and observe it all and take it with a grain of salt
That's the part I was asking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I'm not trying to be obstinate Glenn. I may have worded my questions poorly. If I understood correctly then you suggested some of his methods for coming to those conclusions were questionable. I'm curious how you would have done it differently.
Glenn, I just received notification from YouTube that your videos have been pulled and are being reviewed for statistical accuracy. :)
This has been an interesting thread and I have learned something. But either way the pics are cool. Thanks Ken for the link
From his updates this year it seems that he has done quite a bit of honing since he started the blog. The images will help most people, provided you read the descriptions with them entirely and the comments from the author at the bottom. I tried his theory with microconvexing the edge after a 4k stone with Flitz on denim, then a 0.5 or 0.25 paste on leather. It does provide a good quality shave without much honing to begin with. It's nice to see what actually happens at each grit with both edge-leading and edge-trailing strokes, and the effect of stropping on the micron level.
I am fairly new to straight razor honing, so I may still be somewhat ignorant on the subject. But I do know that over the past year or so, I found myself watching many videos and studying various methods of honing, and nothing seemed to give my razors a decent edge. I became very frustrated. Then I stumbled upon the Science of Sharp Blog and used the "Simple Straight Razor Honing technique" (title outlined in red on the blog). I must say this technique of back honing, denim stropping with polish compound, and .25 diamond stropping gives absolutely fantastic results!
So my advice to any people new to honing and having difficulty, is try the "Simple Straight Razor Honing" technique described on the blog. I wish I had stumbled upon the blog a year earlier, because it would have saved me many hours of searching for various honing methods, none of which seemed to work very well. The Simple Straight Razor Honing method is such a simple method, and I can now produce an edge just as sharp and shave just as well as razors that I have received from SRD, Livi, and other professionals.
Good job finding a method that works for you, Vivaldi. Part of the fun of honing is discovering and developing a repertoire of techniques and tricks that give you a great edge.
As I like to say, there are many roads to sharp.
Glad you found a method that works for you. Personally I don't care for the idea of intentionally putting a burr/foiled edge on the blade, but that's just me. Long as you're happy with the results that's what matters at the end of the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivaldi
Part of me wonders what's simpler - a good 1 > 3/4/5 > 8K > Linen > Leather progression, or his 1K > 6K > pasted denim > Diamond paste progression. Might depend on your skill with a strop VS a hone? I certainly know I'm better with the latter than the former, but I'm improving both skillsets slowly.
I know I'm coming very late to this party, but there is a point being missed that Marshal above hints at. We have all learned to avoid overhoning and creating a wire-edge, and we do that by using edge-leading strokes, accepting that while no burr will form the edge will be chipped in accordance with the abrasive in the hone. Hence the progression to finer hones. Child's play! This guy is simply saying there is an alternative - cut your bevel, create a tall, thin burr deliberately, break it off and then burnish the very apex with a paste. This is going to consume more metal, but does it work? Over the years I have come across a few razors that were simply awful to hone. Maybe half a dozen out of the hundreds I have (:o I know....but many of you followed me down that road!). So I have been trying it out, and I have to say that this is something you might try out when a razor is being difficult. Even the TI 8/8 damascus (one of five made for the old Yahoo SRP group) that I could never get to shave, and which was sent to Lynn with success, seems to have responded. I don't believe in miracles either, but, you know - gift horse/teeth etc? If it works it's another tool in the box.
Chris
