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Shows the edge of a razor at various stages of honing through a scanning electron microscope at 5,000x magnification.
A lot of you may have already seen this or something similar, but it's an interesting and short read for anyone who hasn't.
The Honing Progression
After seeing those it is a wonder anyone would dare put blade to face. ;)
Bob
Making conclusions from pics of the edge of one blade...not very scientific.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWeir
The author has no experience in razor honing other than his own several razors. Pretty pictures prove nothing I am afraid.
Wow
Actually it tells a lot, depending on the information you're looking for
Yes one can spin it however they like to support theories, the truth is the info is conjecture based off a few pics from a guy that has no idea how to hone, he has admitted he has very little experience with honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWeir
I recall much the same argument, 40 years ago, when synthetic stones were trickling in from Japan.
Foreign junk, never equal a good Ark…
Thanks for posting! I have seen this before and he has a lot of interesting photos and blogs and ideas. It supports a lot of "common" knowledge here and as you can see it challenges some too. :tu
Ahhhh yes. I agree. :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
I'll have to go have a look then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel
One thing for certain is that those photos contain a lot of info if they can be interpreted properly. Like anything it can be interpreted many different ways.
You really have to stop and ask yourself if all this info is necessary to achieve shave ready edge? Do you really need more info than a good 10X-20X loupe will give you to that end?
Bob
Not at all, but it's interestingQuote:
Originally Posted by BobH
Interesting pics and blog-Those pics look like a jagged mountain range or something. I don't know how much it helps the average guy honing at his kitchen table, but it's interesting to see that extreme magnification of a developing edge. Thanks for sharing the link!
Sometimes. I actually just went through a bit of an issue the other day. Touched up a Germania Cutlery Works that was shaving A-OK when I set it aside a few months back. Well, it didn't look bad under a 30x loupe, so I touched it up on a Translucent Arkie. Shave improved, but still not really good. Inspection under a 60x magnifier really didn't reveal anything new either. Edges were meeting. No pits/chips/foiled edges. I did another touch up, and never did figure out just what was going on with that thing...but it shaves OK now so, I'll take it I guess? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
You seem to be saying that the increased magnification did nothing to help you assess the problem - and that seems to be the point that others are making - if a problem is not obvious at, say, 20 times magnification, then what is 500 magnification going to add?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
N
I could be wrong, but I would imagine there would have to be some sort of visually identifiable flaw that kept that razor from shaving 'right.' The fact that I couldn't identify it at 30x, and again at 60x doesn't mean higher magnification than I have on hand wouldn't more readily reveal what was wrong with the edge.
I guess you could say that, because I got the razor to shave properly without it, no - higher magnification isn't needed.
But I would really like to know what it was I was missing. If I knew that, it could be avoided in the future. Since I don't really have a clue, I learned nothing from the experience outside of 'Doesn't shave, back to hones.' So there's a significant chance I'll see a similar problem in the future.
I would look at it this way. If I can see a problem with a 10x-20x loupe then there is a problem. If I see a problem at 500x then it is not really a problem in any practical sense. Tied to that is that I must be able to interpret what I see at 10x-20x mag correctly in order to see a problem. There in lies the rub, thank you Will Shakespeare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Bob
This is true. But the foil to that is, if I see something that catches my eye at high magnification, then I drop back down and look at the same spot under 20x. Now I see something amiss that didn't catch my eye the first once over at 20x. I've identified that there IS a problem because it can be seen at low magnification. I know where it is. And I know what to look for in the future under both levels of magnification.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
I view it as another learning tool. Viewing various issues at varying magnifications will train your eye to spot the problem just like feeling an edge that won't shave and comparing it to one that will can calibrate your thumb and train it to feel a problem area without a lick of magnification. It helps to see that problem area under magnification before you put your thumb pad against the edge, as well as having a good edge to compare it to. Just like it helps to see an edge at high magnification, then step back down to see if you can spot the reason it won't shave at low magnification. Maybe in a few months you don't need/want high magnification often, in a couple of years you don't need/want any for most blades. No shame in having a set of training wheels to fall back on until you've learned to ride comfortably without 'em.
Yup, those are good points. I have seen beginners jump on the high magnification bandwagon from the get go and drive themselves crazy trying for the perfect edge under high magnification. In some cases when you see something under high magnification that you believe looks like a problem may not, in reality, be a problem. I have gotten smooth comfortable shaves from blades that when looked at under 10x-20x mag reveal some very slight imperfections in the edge. Sometimes good enough is good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Bob
Just take your best shaving razor and look at it under high magnification, more then likely you will be very surprised at what you see.
Agreed, and that is why the shave test should always be the guide and definitive factor. If it shaves, let well enough alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
Yes sir, but who can do that. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Bob
A lot about honing has always been shrouded in mystery, because we cannot see the actual edge even at 400X.
There is nothing wrong with seeing the results of honing at 500x plus magnification. The more you can see the more you understand the process and more importantly the result of your actions.
I doubt most folks use over 100X for daily honing, other than to document or to learn.
I have used a 60-100 X scope and lately a lighted 40x loupe for honing just for a quick look. Often micro-chips will not be seen at lower than 60X and using an unlighted loupe is much more difficult.
I do not understand why some are so against using magnification or someone obsessing over a perfect edge.
No one complains about obsessive, Jnat and other natural honing, heck they even make long, boring OCD, videos of a razor, sliding back and forth across a stone or of narrated vids of touching a hair to an edge and folks think that great.
If that’s you thing, knock yourself out, it does not hurt anyone.
If you are new to honing or trying to learn more, 100X plus magnification can teach you a lot about the process. Use it if you want, don’t if you do not. But don’t tell new guys they don’t need it… they just might.
There is nothing wrong if you want to OCD about any endevour. I used to use info gleamed from benchrest shooters that would be useful to me when I was long range rifle match shooting at ranges up to 1000 yds using target peep sights. Always nice to have a rifle large caliber tuned to give sub MOA groups, closer to 1/2 inch, at 100 yards off a bench. Unfortunately there are damn few 1 MOA shooters when you are standing on your hind legs shooting while hunting or even prone with a sling. Some times you really only need so much to get the job done well, the rest being over kill to a large extent. I view honing the same way. I am not telling anyone not to use high magnification just saying it may not be entirely necessary in order to produce an edge the shaves well and comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Bob
Judging by history...not this guy lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
Come on 99 percent of what we do here is over kill.
Spend days, weeks hand sanding a pitted razor…
Point is if you want to and enjoy doing it, what’s the harm?
i never meant to suggest extreme magnification is necessary or even useful in honing a razor. Too much is just like chasing a compass, you get bogged down by the minutia & never get anywhere. It's just interesting that the guy took pictures of his razor in an sem after each hone. Pretty pictures that help illustrate how scratches and the apex are slowly refined at each stage. I know it's hardly definitive as we only get to see 0.01mm of one blade hone by one person on one set of hones.
That being said I do believe just like Euclid said that some higher magnifications can be useful as a learning tool or possibly as diagnostic tool but not for every day use, and certainly not 5000x.
Nuff said on magnification as it is another subject similar to the "old tape or don't tape the spine". Like everything else in this sport you use what works for you.
Bob
Referring to your comment in the first paragraph - if a problem is restricted to just one 'spot' that can only be seen at 60 plus magnification, then it's unlikely that this is the cause of a poor shave. The issue becomes one of relevance - if your bevel is good at 20 magnification, it's good to go. If, on the other hand, you can see a problem at 10 or 20 times magnification, then you may be able to identify the problem. To my mind, it doesn't need any greater magnification than this, purely because my skin can tolerate imperfections of this magnitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
I don’t think it is so much revealing a problem, that SEM edge photos show, but the effects of technique and honing practices, like different grits and types stones, stropping and polishing with paste have on an edge, that are most illuminating.
Locating issues, causes and repairs, are still left to the interpretation of the viewer. We see that all the time here, at much lower resolution where members, see different issues and offer varied solutions.
In some ways is it much like a Dyno, the car that produces the most torque or horsepower, does not always win the race, but it does tell the builders if they are headed in the right direction.
Well in that case, I'll continue to rely on my thumb pad test - it's the one I automatically use before any other - and the one that tells me when to put the hones away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Well, some of us have to work on calibrating our thumb pads.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Or for those in the position I'm in, with the calloused and dead nerve endings of a mechanic, calibrating that soft meat between the thumb knuckle and joint that can still feel things.
We still need our magnification.
:beer1:
Quite right - as a retired accountant, my left thumb has much the same acuity as when I was born. It really is a very accurate assessment of when the bevel is OK - and, conversely when it's not. However, I'm sure that your acquired engineering skills give you advantages over me in other ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Actually it is well done work with a good amount of interpretation in the pictures.
I like what he does and everbody has or can draw conclusions of it. If someone isnt interested or is convinced he is doing crap then he shouldnt visit his site....
Probably he shows some interesting stuff which others either dont wanne show or others would like to show but do not had the idea or the equipmemt to do so ;-)
Unfortunately when put something on the net you are wide open for comments for better or worse. It usually requires that you have a thick skin to compensate for any criticisms.Quote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
I have one question...
Do you believe that the edge would look the same under an SEM between a New SR user that was honing for the first time as compared to somebody that had been honing hundreds of different SR's for many years ????
Same Hone Same razor would you see a difference ?????
Glenn whats youre point? Yes there is a difference between somebody honing for a long time thousands and millions of razors....i know that the results are regularly under fire from some i call "experienced honing masters".....i only stated my point, i like the page and i get something out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
You are looking at the work of a rank amateur on the hones under high magnification, so although the Pics are very pretty and cool,, any conclusions made from them are highly suspect...Quote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
That is all
Even something as simple as the Glass dulling pics are suspect, ever seen a beginner "Kill" an edge in person ???? I have and it is scary
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
So everybody has to evaluate this for his own, this is no community question that somebody tells me this is shit, or the guys making the page "only honed one razor" or he has no experience....
I evaluate on my personal experience and comeout and not on that based what others think on something.
I exactly expected this kind of reply ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
To make an evaluation one must know that facts.. do you not agree ???
So if I am looking at an amateur honer's heavy hands and somebody making conclusions from that, those conclusions become suspect
Do you not agree??
Again this is youre view and not mine...lets keep it that way....Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun