Thread: Convexed bevel, Good thing?

Micrographs of a convex edge.

Here is an interesting video by Dave Weaver, Dave is an SRP member but has not posted in a while. This video is part of a series on the “Unicorn edge” and buffing an edge with a buffer, posted on the Sawmill Creek forum,

While this technique will not work on a razor, it is interesting what his micrographs show of the edge taken of chisels at a side profile.

As Dave says, the technique is not new, I was first taught it by famed carver W.P. Wilcox in the early 80’s for sharpening carving chisels. W.P could not be bothered with sharpening on stones, except to remove chips and often said. “We don’t get paid to sharpen tools; we get paid to cut wood.”

And off a leather wheeled buffer they cut wood like butter.

What is new is Dave’s new look at the technique and experimentation with edge sharpness, longevity, and dramatic micrographs of the bevel side profile.

So, how does it apply to razors? Buffing and the result of buffing is exactly what we do by stropping. The strop works exactly the same way, except that it removes microns or fraction of microns, rather than thousands by buffing.

It has long been contended that stropping convexes a bevel or if done incorrectly rounds an edge. My contention has always been that convexing a bevel is a good thing and makes a stronger edge.

The best example is a Scandi grind vs a bevel grind on a knife. A Scandi grind is a convexed bevel on steroids. No question that a Scandi is a stronger edge than a bevel edge, and possibly sharper, or at least subject to less resistance. Think boat hull design.

Dave also touches on how a buffed convex edge is stronger and cuts cleaner than a Micro bevel. And the video also makes an argument that bevel angle is not as critical as once thought, that bevel shape may trump bevel angle, Dave’s convex bevels are much steeper than the honed bevel angle yet perform much better.

So, yes Dave’s cutting wood and we are cutting hair, two different kettles of fish… or are they?

What are your thoughts?

(Micrographs video Unicorn Edge)

(Dave’s first Unicorn Edge,)

One of my pet theories has been that using Slurry actually adds to the Convexity of the edge, making for a longerlasting and smoother feeling edge..

Originally Posted by gssixgun

One of my pet theories has been that using Slurry actually adds to the Convexity of the edge, making for a longerlasting and smoother feeling edge..

Interesting! Would you please share your thoughts with us?

Paul

Shigeyoshi Iwasaki recommends a convex bevel, especially for westerners. Good enough for me.

I do a little honing for a barber friend of mine.
This pic shows the convex bevel, after being stroped for about a month, without honing.

I also understand that Samurai swords were honed in this fashion.

We also know that a Arch is stronger than a triangle,especially in stone bridges, and doorways

“One of my pet theories has been that using Slurry actually adds to the Convexity of the edge, making for a longerlasting and smoother feeling edge.”

I agree, here is what I think happens. Convexing a bevel is a good thing.

No matter how hard we try to grind flat, momentum forces the pressure to the edge, in the direction of travel, edge leading. On a stone without slurry that is not as big deal.

But with slurry, picture a bunch of balls under the bevel, as the pressure moves forward towards the edge, (the direction of travel) the edge dives down into the grit and contact the stone, the more slurry the more aggression, convexing. The balls/grit assist that momentum by reducing friction. Both the grit and the stone are aggressive, so cutting is multiplied and concentrated toward the direction of travel. Which is also why incrementally thinning slurry produces better results for finishing and polishes more that it cuts. Grinding vs Polishing.

All of this is microscopic, and the weight/pressure transfer is almost imperceptible, but it happens, and we, (razor honers) are talking about removing microns of steel.

A simple example of how little force is needed to make a change, is the X stroke. That little bit of centrifugal force concentrates the pressure on the edge, add a rolling action and the pressure is magnified on a small spot at a time as the pressure shifts along the edge.

Slurry is a remarkably interesting thing, that is not studied much in honing other than how to, and probably why it is difficult for new guys to understand and master. Thicker is not always better.
Add to the pressure shift the fact that some slurry is friable and crushes to a finer consistency and fresh cutting edge, but not necessarily uniformly, (natural stone), and the process is magnified, (one of the goals of finishing on slurry). The balls or bits of grit become smaller and multiply in number and abrades the steel.

Paste on a strop works much the same with added aggression from the grit. Add to the pressure shift and rolling grit, the strop flexes at the edge to the highest point or the most pressure and it too becomes more aggressive. The paste grit is not fixed, It will convex a bevel, but if your attention wanders one can easily roll an edge.

It is also why, when lapping a precision granite plate, they use a cast iron lapping plate, that imbeds the grit to prevent it from rolling around under the plate and cutting a more uniform surface. They also routinely clean the plate to remove the swarf and get a more uniform surface.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Micrographs of a convex edge.

Here is an interesting video by Dave Weaver, Dave is an SRP member but has not posted in a while. This video is part of a series on the “Unicorn edge” and buffing an edge with a buffer, posted on the Sawmill Creek forum,

While this technique will not work on a razor, it is interesting what his micrographs show of the edge taken of chisels at a side profile.
Actually I once used a buffer to smooth up a razor i could not get a comfortable shave off no matter what I did to it on a stone or strop. The trick was to not actually touch the razor to the buffer but rather let the outer fibres of the swansdown buff do the job. Physically could not feel or hear contact with the buff & I did it at 90º, just one pass each side Worked great but never successfully repeated the experiment so took the one win and folded

As Dave says, the technique is not new, I was first taught it by famed carver W.P. Wilcox in the early 80’s for sharpening carving chisels. W.P could not be bothered with sharpening on stones, except to remove chips and often said. “We don’t get paid to sharpen tools; we get paid to cut wood.”

And off a leather wheeled buffer they cut wood like butter.

What is new is Dave’s new look at the technique and experimentation with edge sharpness, longevity, and dramatic micrographs of the bevel side profile.

So, how does it apply to razors? Buffing and the result of buffing is exactly what we do by stropping. The strop works exactly the same way, except that it removes microns or fraction of microns, rather than thousands by buffing.

It has long been contended that stropping convexes a bevel or if done incorrectly rounds an edge. My contention has always been that convexing a bevel is a good thing and makes a stronger edge.

The best example is a Scandi grind vs a bevel grind on a knife. A Scandi grind is a convexed bevel on steroids. No question that a Scandi is a stronger edge than a bevel edge, and possibly sharper, or at least subject to less resistance. Think boat hull design. Yes, for delicate woodwork or slicing salmon but Scandis for bushcraft are often given a slight microbevel for strength also, even if just using a strop..

Dave also touches on how a buffed convex edge is stronger and cuts cleaner than a Micro bevel. And the video also makes an argument that bevel angle is not as critical as once thought, that bevel shape may trump bevel angle, Dave’s convex bevels are much steeper than the honed bevel angle yet perform much better.

So, yes Dave’s cutting wood and we are cutting hair, two different kettles of fish… or are they?

What are your thoughts?

Originally Posted by outback

I also understand that Samurai swords were honed in this fashion.

We also know that a Arch is stronger than a triangle,especially in stone bridges, and doorways

Yep except the whole sword, below the ridge line ( shinogi) is convex aiding in separation of the cut. How much depends on whether you want to cut bare flesh & leather armour or bust thru hard bamboo or metal armour.
Historically Japanese sword changed a lot to suit the armour of who they were at war with but I digress...

Good thread
One thing no one's mentioned is that western chisels like Jp kitchen knives & wakamisori are single bevel tools. The nature of the beast is SHARP convexed or not. On single bevel Jp knives & chisels you get the best of both world's with sharpness & cleavage & there is always a convex on one bevel. On wakamisori not the case with convexing. I don't think you can make a western chisel sharper thru convexing on a buffer but the more metal you create behind an edge always adds strength & the buff will give a smooth edge for sure..

Definitely slurry aids in convexity & that's one of the reasons softer jnats are preferred for polishing the bevel on Jp kitchen knives. Tool stones are a touch harder. Possibly plane & chlsel bevels are a bit less steep than knives & wakamisori stones are generally the hardest to actually prevent convexing the bevels.