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I've just update the razor care and double bevel honing sections of my web site. I hope it makes a little more sense. Or, at least, is not totally confusing.
www.tzknives.com/razorcare.html
www.tzknives.com/twobevel.html
Thanks for your patience with my weird ideas.
Tim Z.
I like this part....
Please understand, this is for normal honing and does not cover chip or rust removal.
...
The rust removal part should be edited to if sent back rusty I will keep it and never send you another :roflmao
Nice work thanks.
Thanks Tim.
The double bevel pictures are interesting. I think I'll give it a try, just to see how it goes.
Great stuff Tim. Thank you.
Jordan
+1 on the double bevel .. I might try this idea out actually ..
Thanks for the links
ps. lovely razor :D I'm sucha sucker for patterned metal ( Damascus ) blades
Garry
Very interresting read there Tim, thanks for sharing
Although if I try this, and it works, I am going to be cussing you, you do realize this, that I will be using your name in vain, as I re-hone 50+ razors :roflmao :roflmao :roflmao
I've been really surprised how well this works.
I'll have to try it out next time I hone. Thanks for sharing, Tim.
Well, I did it. I dinged up the blade on my sheffield. Sigh. My strop came off the hook as I was stropping and the metal "D" hit the blade. The result was 2 folded over / chipped regions.
I had to go back to the DMT 1200 so I thought that I'd have a go at doing the double bevel. I seem to have the razor popping hairs better than before so it is looking good. I'll test shave tomorrow and see how it goes. :D
Ash.
works pretty well, so far as I tried it. slapped 2 layers of electrical tape on the back of a 5/8 dovo that was already honed up and then did 20 light passes on the swaty.
not the difference between night and day, but it shaved noticeably smoother.
Still working on single bevel. I"d like to see what this looks like under the microscope. Can someone take pictures?
- Bob.
under my crappy pocket 'scope, it actually looked like a rolled edge (shiny strip right along the edge, maybe 1/12th the width of the bevel?) but shaved quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFontaine
that's only at 100x, i'm sure a better microscope would reveal more detail
Bob ... see Tim's site above or here http://www.tzknives.com/twobevel.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by RobertFontaine
theres a good pic of what you should expect to see ..
hope this helps
Garry
Garry,
I don't mean to be contrary, but that's not what those photos are. They show the regular honing bevel relative to the un-etched Damascus on the main grind of the razor.
You need at least 200x just to see the micro bevel we're talking about here. Taking good pictures is difficult due to the reflections and depth of field at the high magnification.
You can see some edge close-ups here:
http://www.tzknives.com/razoredges.html
The page is a comparison of stones and the finish they give to the cutting edge. There aren't any double bevel photos here either.
I'm doing some experimenting with the compound step. I'll be posting photos that show the Chromium Oxide finish on the double bevels someday...
I'll be bringing my microscope to Lynn's "shindig" for those who want to play.
Tim Z.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry
Now why would a double bevel shave smoother? Hmmm....
I have noticed that my biggest problem with technique is when I forget to SCRAPE and start trying to slice.
Consider a plane that goes through the razor from the center of the spine right through the edge. If that plane moves straight down my face in the direction of my face, I get a smooth shave.
If at any time the razor starts to move in the direction of that plane, it will slice into my face.
Perhaps the higher angle makes it easier to scrape? Could it be technique dependent?
Or maybe removing such a tiny amount of metal just makes the extremely slow-cutting finishing hone more effective?
Maybe the lower angle of the traditional straight is a compromise because making it thicker to increase the angle would be adding a lot of metal or throwing off the balance? But then we aren't talking a big difference here if it can be accomplished with tape.
I suspect that much of the time our honing is making an edge so thin that a slight defect in technique causes it to degrade, and increasing the angle slightly makes a more robust edge and lowers the risk of damaging the actual edge because less honing is needed.
Just ruminations. Gotta go home and try it.
Paul
It is about the complete removal of the scratch pattern of the grit before it. Most of the time, some of the lower grit scratches will make it through to the shaving edge if the razor is honed in the traditional manner; the double bevel method reduces this "problem" because you are creating a completely new (steeper) bevel angle . FWIW cartridge razor manufacturers use a multiple bevel honing process to produce their razors for this reason. With that said I have had mixed results with this honing systerm, it seems to work very well on some razors, but the traditional method works better for others.Quote:
Originally Posted by toolarts
Interesting stuff. I really wondered about double bevels and razors when I first found SRP; I was left going like this :thinking::thinking::thinking: when I know somewhere, pre-crash someone had said double bevel and a straight razor = bad.
Woodworkers have been using double bevels on chisels and plane irons for who knows how long to produce wood shavings so thin you can read through them, so I thought :thinking: Why wouldn't/shouldn't a double bevel work on a straight razor????
I'm glad to see there's is talk about this and I'd like it if someone for whatever reason has a negative opinion on double bevels and razors to share their views. I myself have NOT tried a double bevel yet, but I will.
Thanks for the info, Tim.
I have experimented with this method on a lot of different razors and have found that it produces really good results on most razors in significantly less time than my "traditional" natural stone progressions. On the other hand, assuming you can completely polish the lower grit scratch patterns away on the single bevel method, I think that your edge will be a little bit sharper because the inclusive bevel angle will be a little bit shallower. I also would rather touch up without or with just one piece of tape than to have to use two or three pieces so my razors are honed with a single bevel (most without tape, a few with tape).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisl
Tim, did you use the factory finish on the UF to
give the edge that you photographed, or had you
lapped the stone previously? If so, how did you
lap it?
I've been curious ;)
- Scott
My latest Ebay addition, a shiny Clauss arrived today.
It had the original bevel but two really nasty 1/2 bevel chipped out areas.
So, I 325'd it until the chips were gone, then 600 then 1200 all DMT.
Then, I put two layers of tape on the spine and did about 40 stokes on the Norton 8K. Then about 40 strokes on the yellow coticule.
With 60 strokes on my Tony Miller Latigo, the entire process took less than 40 minutes--I'm thinking more like 1/2 hour.
Shaved. Whoa there Betsy, this sucker is frickin' sharp. BBS on my mustachios shaved only WTG. And a couple of bleeders. Not cuts, just unexplained bloody spots.
The razor wiped the whiskers off my chin, it was quite amazing, but I also have more redness now than I had with other razors I have honed.
I remember someone else described their experience with a Feather or one of those disposable blade razors, and this experience rings a bell. Unfortunately I think that posting got lost in the database failure.
Anyway, this sure works great on restorations with wide bevels.
The only problem I see with this is if I sell this razor to someone, it will be cool until it starts to need honing, and then a barber hone probably won't help unless they guy knows to tape the spine first.
Other than that, this is pretty awesome.
I've got a couple of questions. Tim's write-up says do traditional honing as you'd usually do. I took this to mean hone as normal to the point where you would then take the razor and shave with it. Then, whack some tape on the spine, increase the angle, and do some more finishing.
First, what happens to the edge created under traditional honing when the angle is increased? Do you create a small wire edge that breaks off?
Second, and maybe I'm not visualising this correctly, but I'm not getting how a steeper angle is any more effective at removing coarser grit cuts than polishing at the original angle :thinking:
Can anyone help me out here?
James.
Tim thank you for contributing valuable information to our community it is greatly appreciated. Look forward to meeting you in Person Next Friday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Zowada
James,
The reason is because the number of strokes you hone depends on the AREA of the bevel you are working on.
The number of strokes goes up as a square of the dimensions, so if you double the width of the bevel, you can easily multiply by 4 the number of strokes needed.
By taping, you tip the razor up and are contacting a much smaller area of the bevel, which means the honing goes orders of magnitude faster.
The Clauss I just did has about a 3/64" wide bevel after I ground out the chips. But after taping, the the secondary bevel is less than 1/4 the width of the full bevel. I probably over-did the polishing with the 8K at 40 strokes. I believe it could have been accomplished with 1/2 that. Polishing out the scratch marks without taping would have hundreds and hundreds of strokes, I know, I've done it before.
That's why I said it is great for restorations where the bevel has gotten wider due to having to grind out big chips. It really speeds things up.
I lathered up the other side and shaved again with this razor. This time, no bleeders, no irritation--I just backed off on the pressure. You really need a very light touch with such a sharp razor.
I have always been fascinated with creating a straight line on the edge.
A while back, I tried creating that line by dragging the edge on the stone, point down, the blade perpendicular to the stone. It created an awesome straight line but of course, a totally dull blade.
Then I tried to hone carefully so that i *just* reached the point where the two bevels met again. My skill was not so good, and this never really worked.
However, now this secondary bevel thing gives me an idea.
If I get a razor close, then make a flat on the edge, it might be a lot easier to get the two sides of the bevel to meet with two layers of tape, i.e., creating the secondary bevel.
The next step would be to remove the tape and *carefully* hone the sides down till just *before* they meet. This would, theoretically, create the absolute minimum size secondary bevel. The idea would be to make this bevel smaller and smaller until it just disappears. It seems like this might create a better edge.
I don't want to try it with a restored razor with a wide bevel though. I need to do it with something already in good shape...maybe my filly.
Whaddya think, am I off in la-la land? Probably.
Paul
Ah, thanks toolarts! I generally tape all my spines anyway, which is maybe why I wasn't understanding that there was an issue.
James.
Scott,Quote:
Originally Posted by sebell
It was lapped so that the original factory marks were about 50% gone. I used 400 grit Silicon Carbide paper on a surface plate. I wish I had a DMT !
Tim Z.
:o Oops .. thanks for clearing that up TimQuote:
Originally Posted by Tim Zowada
Garry :)
I'll trade you my DMT 325 grit for a damascus blade :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tim Zowada
:roflmao
I have had many long conversations with our friends down at the Japan Woodworker (since my sailboat is 100 yds from their door).
They really push the sandpaper on flat granite or glass approach for plane irons and chisels--woodworking tools. I think others call it the "Scary Sharp" method.
The 325 DMT is nice, but it degrades. No matter what they say, they loose significant agressiveness over time.
Also, I still have concerns over the DMT's uniformity. It produces little scratch marks and BIG scratch marks.
My next restoration experiment will be sandpaper on glass.
Anyway, MUCHO thanks to Tim Zowada for this excellent string and the double bevel idea.
I just did a silver steel full wedge and created a secondary bevel that can only be seen at 100X, and the results are unbelieveable. I have *never* been able to get this thing to shave, and it is shaving nicely now.
Regards,
Paul Houtz
Tim,
Thanks for the info! Man this sure is enticing to try
out on one of my blades... except that I have just
one :)
- Scott
Ok, I think I like this technique. I'm no master honer, but I can get a blade sharp enough to shave. I'm also new to straight shaving (about 3 weeks now)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley
I had to do this twice, the first time I don't think I spent enought time restoring the edge from the chips and polishing it out before I did the second bevel. The test shave was ok, but no better than I normally get.
I went back to the hones and started again, this time it spent alot of time polishing on the Belgium Blue then the yellow. Once I was happy with the polish on the bevel, I added the extra tape and did 20 laps. Stropped it about 100 times and shaved with it this morning. I'm pretty happy with it! :y
I think I like the feel of a layer of tape on the spine when I'm honing, I can't expain it, but it feels smoother and I think I get a little better control of the blade. I'll be using 1 layer of tape on the spine from now on then going to 3 layers to add the second bevel.
Just thought that I would update you all.:tu
Oh, and Tim, thank you again for this technique and you make wonderful looking razors, If only I could justify one.. *must.. suppress... RAD...* :rolleyes:
Ash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolarts
Interesting. So am I to understand that technically this could drastically reduce the time needed to hone to a sharp edge an old wedge with a huge bevel? Like I could hone it traditionally until I get to a certain point, then add two pieces of tape and finish it in less time than normal? Would you do this for most of the honing on a wedge if the bevel is so drastically wide? i.e. you would just be trying to create a smaller bevel which would be easier to hone? Or would it be the same as described on Tim's page? Like only a few strokes after you finished with your finest hone? Sounds like a great system either way.
I feel "all a buzz" with this post, because it seems like a breakthrough in straight razor honing is starting here. Also, it's totally cool and reassuring to me that the age old technique of putting a micro bevel on a cutting tool (e.g. wood chisels, plane irons) also seems to be able to apply to razors.
When I joined SRP last year and started looking at posts, I really wondered why there was no talk of micro bevels or if there was, it seemed the little I did find on it was that you do NOT want a micro bevel on a razor's edge (with no real explanation why from what I recall).
I am going to try this, but not quite yet. For the first time, tonight I got one of my razors sticky sharp and passing the HHT on the Belgian blue and pretty much passing it on the yellow coticule. I can't wait to shave with it tomorrow!:y
Anyway, with this micro bevel stuff, seems we can learn from our woodworker brothers.
We'll all have to report our findings on how TOUCH UPS go with a micro bevel. Woodworkers do one of two things: 1) remove the micro-bevel by dropping back down to a lower "back bevel" angle, then put a new micro bevel on. 2) Or just do a few passes at the same micro bevel angle and see if that is sufficient. Option 2 gradually increases the micro bevel which eventually requires going back to option 1.
No it will not drastically reduce the amount of time that it takes to hone a razor. You must get the first bevel very sharp (at least 8K sharpness) and before adding the second layer of tape; getting the first bevel sharp can still take a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philadelph
Yep!Quote:
Originally Posted by Philadelph
You DO have to hone that bevel--it has to be somewhat close, and you can't have any big gaping chips.
But I found that the real problem with these big fat wedges is that final bit of polishing necessary to get an edge shaving smoothly.
Instead of having to remove metal all along that fat bevel, you just remove a little metal right at the tip. It goes extremely fast. I had been working on this wedge with it's nearly 1/4" bevel for days and making no progress.
Then I taped it, and a few strokes on the 8K and a few more on the coticle and WOW! done!
For the first time, I can see improvement at 100K under the microscope!
But, the downside is that you may have to strop with the tape on, and stropping with tape on the bevel sucks.
I think with a single layer of tape, you can probably remove the tape and still get a decent stropping, but my impression from my work here is that two layers is thick enough to lift the edge a little too far away from the strop.
Perhaps I just need to adjust my stropping technique a little, I'm not sure yet.
Maybe Tim or someone else has some experience with this.
I may fall back to one layer of tape and see how that works. It should be similar, just not as dramatic. Probably have to get a lot closer to a sharp edge first for one layer of tape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolarts
That is what I was asking for. I have the same problem currently. This bevel is large and the wedge, fat. I have been working on it for a WHILE but still it is not ready. I was thinking that exactly what happened for you might happen for me. Obviously it is not a given, but theoretically, it seems like it should work.
Honing these big wedges is interesting.
There is physics and mathematics to the honing process--and it is based on area.
I'm pretty sure this means that going to lower grit or increasing the area has a POWER OF 2 affect on the number of strokes.
I am still working on this, but it seems to exhibit itself a couple of ways.
1. As the bevel gets wider you are squaring the number of strokes needed.
2. If you go from one grit to a grit twice as fine, you are squaring the number of strokes needed.
Of course, this is not exact, and there are mutlipliers and differences between aggressive and less aggressive stones, but I think the principle holds.
Going from 1200 grit to 12000 grit without intermediate grits can easily take thousands of strokes, whereas progressing from 1200 to 2400 to 4000 to 8000 to 1000 to 12000 can only take hundreds.
And a bevel that is 8 times as wide can easily take 64 times as many strokes. Think about that. If it takes 40 strokes, you are talking about 3000 strokes.
It takes me about 2 seconds to do a stroke (1 X pattern). Thats over an hour and half, and if you count re-wetting the stone, and probably lapping it in between, this is really 2 hours.
And if it was 80 strokes for a normal bevel, you could easily be talking 6 or 7 hours of stroking a big wide bevel for the same effect.
So, if you tape, you drop that fat bevel back down to the size of a standard hollow ground razor with the factory grind, and you can now use a a few dozen strokes on barber hones to get it shaving.
Anyway, that is the explanation I came to for myself. Try it out, it's pretty easy.
I will concur with this technique on the big wedges, the second bevel really speeds up those last few steps. I've been shaving with a handful of those old fat arse wedges for a few months and the double bevel seems to aid in edge retention, since the angle isn't as acute, it is a bit more stout and will resist dulling a bit more.
I disagree that the edge is sharper using the traditional method though. the edge can only be as sharp as the finest grit used, and the angle difference is not any more than the variation in the thickness of all vintage razors. the angle of a thin backed extra hollow ground razor and a WIDE backed wedge is much greater than the difference created by the tape. so the only side affect that I have been able to detect is a greatly reduced honing time and a slight increase in edge retention (could just be in my head, but the result is surely not negative).
P.S. Tim, KUDOS on those close up shots of different honed edges!!!!! It's great to actually SEE what all the famous hones are doing to the edge in question. But your razors/knives could use some refining...:rolleyes:
The idea isn't at all weird. Putting a double bevel on knives is a decades (centuries?) old idea. Still under debate today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Zowada
Since the reduced angle doesn't go to the edge, it'll have no effect on the actual cut itself. It might reduce "drag"? One of the knife arguments was that the reduced angle behind the cutting bevel would reduce "drag resistance" when going through meat. I'm hoping my razors won't need that particular advantage. :eek:
Two reasons to use it. (IMO)
- Some think a double bevel cuts better.
- You want to touch up an already established bevel, but want to do it quicker by using a steeper angle, without polishing the entire existing bevel.
I tested double-bevels on some fine knives decades ago and came to the conclusion that it was far more trouble than it was worth. It does make touching up an existing edge much faster though.
As far as the angle difference and cutting ability goes; if I put one layer of electrical tape on my 1/8" spine Double Duck, I get a cutting angle virtually identical to my 9/64" spine vintage C-Mon wedge w/o tape (total included angle variation w/in 0.15 degree). Edges so close as to make no practical difference...
Ok, well I'm definitely going to give double bevels a try. One thing I'm curious about is what to do when it comes time to touch up the razor – whether to put three pieces of tape on and hit just the secondary bevel, and if so, how many touch-ups before you have to reset the primary bevel, etc.
I'm also wondering about pasted hangers. I have a linen with chrome oxide that I'm pretty attached to, I do ten or so strokes on every few shaves...I hate the idea of having to put tape on the razor just to give it a few licks on a hanger.