Norton 4000/8000..What if it cost more?

Hey all:

There was an interesting thread that started a month ago and therefore has aged. It was the review created by a user that is now banned. There were interesting points shared regarding opinions about the benchmark Norton 4000/8000.

I think most would agree the Norton 4000/8000 is the current benchmark stone. My question I'd like to hear opinions on is:

If the Norton 4000/8000 stone were to cost twice as much as it does now........do you think it would still be THE benchmark stone?

Keep in mind at twice the price it would essentially match the Shapton ceramic on glass 4000 and 8000 grit stones (no soaking required).

I posted this question in the advanced honing section rather than the basic section mainly because I will go on record saying that I too believe for the money I don't think the 4000/8000 can be beat and I do think it's a quality versatile workhorse of a stone and I didn't want to give anyone entering the world of honing the impression that I'm out to trash the Norton 4000/8000. I do personally think the cost of the Norton is a huge reason that it's the benchmark since I think there are other stones or combination of stones that are equal or better than the Norton but cost more. I am certainly no expert on honing and may therefore be speaking out of line, but I've wondered what others think about this.

I guess really my question is that simple: If the Norton 4000/8000 stone were to cost twice as much as it does now........do you think it would still be THE benchmark stone?

Chris L

Not to sound like a sheep too much but I bought the Norton because I was told to, so cost wasn't really the issue.

I kinda wished I'd just bought shave ready and a barber hone to be honest.

I'm a big believer in barber hones myself. Unless I need to set an edge, it's all the hone I really need. I haven't bought a Norton 4k/8k yet.

I think the Norton would still probably be very popular if it was twice the cost. I've heard it's easier to use than the Shapton line, which requires more precise lapping and a bit more skill to overcome the hones' sticky suction effect.

The DMT/Belgian blue/coticule progression would probably get more attention, as it would be close to the cost of a Norton at that point.

It's definitely versatile. :)

Josh

OOOOooooo I think yer treading in dangerous waters here..... :)
I think that this thread should be stopped ASAP, before many yes answers are recorded here, and the next thing we know the price on the Norton goes up !!! just because they can....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

OOOOooooo I think yer treading in dangerous waters here..... :)
I think that this thread should be stopped ASAP, before many yes answers are recorded here, and they next thing we know the price on the Norton goes up !!! just because they can....

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I figured my post may spawn a debate. I totally agree that the 4000/8000 is a versatile stone and for the money it can't be beat. I also think it could be agreed that it's the benchmark stone right now using a literal definition of what benchmark can mean: "any standard or reference by which others can be measured or judged".

Just because it's THE benchmark stone (right now), I don't know if it could be considered a superlative stone (superlative: "of the highest kind, quality, or order; surpassing all else or others; supreme; extreme")

Josh has a good point that twice the price would bring it into the DMT/yellow/blue pricepoints and I had mentioned that twice the price would bring it into the Shapton category. I think it would be futile to assert that there is ONE superlative stone or stones out there since there are so many good ones (Norton being one of them) and many different steel types to work with.

My ultimate point is that the price of a Norton is a huge part of its popularity and if it were to cost twice as much, there would be other contenders out there vying for the "benchmark" spot Norton currently holds the title for. And as such, maybe for a newbie wanting to get into honing and not be strictly confined to only affording THE lowest cost 4000/8000 grit category, maybe the Norton would not be the first stone to purchase?:hmmm::shrug: At this point with so many other good stone combinations out there, I'd ask a newbie what his budget was: If it was tight....Norton 4000/8000 without question. If he had more money to spend towards honing, I personally wouldn't recommend the Norton. I admit I have only my own personal limited experience to go by but I'm just sharing my opinion.

Chris L

With all due respect, I think this is a "if my cat were a cow, I could milk her"- kinda thread.
While I don't own a Norton myself, it is very clear to me that the majority of people here use it to hone their razors. I believe, with some practice, they all achieve superb results. It's not an overly expensive stone and it gets the job done.
IF it would cost twice as much, IF half of them would arrive broken in the mail, IF it would self-ignite when using too much pressure, IF... IF...IF. Those if's aren't. Overall,the Norton is what it is: The Cassius Clay of the hones. He's fast and graciously efficient, sometimes controversial, but most people love him anyway.

Some people will choose to use another hone, often for the simple fact alone that they don't want to use the preferred choice of the majority of people. I know this, 'cause I am that kind of bastard myself. No sense in denying it. :D

For being a sentimental fool, I chose to hone with natural stones, and because I'm Belgian, that had to be the BBW and the Coticule. In the end I needed to buy a DMT in order to set a proper bevel on my ebay razors. A DMT!!! for crying out loud. How's that for a sentimental natural hone?
Bottom line: my THREE hones have cost me way more than ONE combination Norton, that would have allowed me to do pretty much the same.
IF the Norton would be priced the quadruple from what it is now, I would have been a smart man. Perhaps. But now, I'm just a happy man. Because my three stones fit my impossible character way more than a Norton ever could. How priceless is that?

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Originally Posted by Bart

With all due respect, I think this is a "if my cat were a cow, I could milk her"- kinda thread.
While I don't own a Norton myself, it is very clear to me that the majority of people here use it to hone their razors. I believe, with some practice, they all achieve superb results. It's not an overly expensive stone and it gets the job done.
IF it would cost twice as much, IF half of them would arrive broken in the mail, IF it would self-ignite when using too much pressure, IF... IF...IF. Those if's aren't. Overall,the Norton is what it is: The Cassius Clay of the hones. He's fast and graciously efficient, sometimes controversial, but most people love him anyway.

Some people will choose to use another hone, often for the simple fact alone that they don't want to use the preferred choice of the majority of people. I know this, 'cause I am that kind of bastard myself. No sense in denying it. :D

For being a sentimental fool, I chose to hone with natural stones, and because I'm Belgian, that had to be the BBW and the Coticule. In the end I needed to buy a DMT in order to set a proper bevel on my ebay razors. A DMT!!! for crying out loud. How's that for a sentimental natural hone?
Bottom line: my THREE hones have cost me way more than ONE combination Norton, that would have allowed me to do pretty much the same.
IF the Norton would be priced the quadruple from what it is now, I would have been a smart man. Perhaps. But now, I'm just a happy man. Because my three stones fit my impossible character way more than a Norton ever could. How priceless is that?

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Hey Bart, no offense taken. You make some good points: It is what it is.

In reviewing my post, I can see how some may interpret my thoughts as some sort of ax to grind against the Norton. Rest assured, I don't.

I must admit I'm one of those guys too who enjoys the real or imagined pursuit of something better in all things straight razor as well as other things; "upgrade-itis" if you will.

Knowing the little I do so far and again drawing on only a short period of honing my own razors to comfortable shave readiness for myself and......having "upgrade-itis" if I had to do it all over again, I would not have purchased my Norton 4000/8000 and did sell mine. Like you I have the BBW and Yellow and for setting bevels a Shapton 2000 grit on the way to replace my DMT 1200 I sold (there's that nasty upgrade-itis again!). I'd like to keep them all, but funding you know.

If there are others just getting in to this that know themselves to be plagued with upgrade-itis, in my personal opinion, I think there are such a wide array of honing stone options that are easier to maintain than the 4000/8000 that I personally if asked (and I have been) would suggest alternatives in addition to the benchmark stone. Obviously any member can get that here (alternative info). Example: I don't own the DMT D8EE, I have experience with the D8E and I could see a D8E, D8EE and a $35 Chinese 12K as a neat alternative to the Norton 4000/8000.

All in all if you can't tell, I love all of this stuff and I think it's cool that there are so many different and effective ways of skinning the same cat. Isn't it fun?!:tu

Of course it's great fun. :)
It should be great fun and it will be great fun,
as long as we don't make a religion out of it. :nono:

I do think we are in agreement on this one. I only tried to protect you a bit from your own enthusiasm. I've seen what happens to guys who dishonor the Norton on this place...

I think that most people who choose to shave with a straight are of the stubborn, self-righteous kind, and I absolutely mean that in the kindest possible way. It takes guts to go against the main stream and place a lethal edge against your throat and have a shave. After all, why do something the easy way, if it also could be done the hard way? That's more or less my personal little philosophy in life. Life is not about where you're heading, but about how you get there.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is: strong-minded people usually have strong opinions. It's great that there's so much respect for different opinions on this forum. I've seen other forums on the internet.

I had the distinct feeling that you disagree with Forzato being banned for his review on the Norton, and that you wanted to conduct your own little silent protest by provoking things just a tiny little bit further. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm famous for being wrong. And for defusing situations that didn't need defusing in the first place.

For what it's worth: I hope they banned Forzato for far more than his review on the Norton.

The Norton is a great stone. It measures 3" x 8".;)

There are other hones, and I wish I could try them all.
Sadly, I ran out of money.:shrug:

Have fun with your hones. I'm kinda interested in how you use them: X-strokes and lap counts and when and how to progress, and whether you do pyramids on them or not.

With great respect,

Bart.

What if all the stones out there jumped up to $1,000 each, which stone would you go to then.?What if a Coticule went up to $1,000 and the Norton went down to a nickel? What would you go to then? What if the Norton went up to $1,000 and the Shapton Glass Stones cost went to 5 cents each? What would you go to then? What if.....................................

Personally, I find the Shapton Glass 4K and 8K are very similar stones to the Norton and are as consistent as the Norton. I would have no problem using them daily, but I hone so many razors every day that it's just easier for me to use the Norton Combo and keep flipping it vs. changing stones all the time.

If you guys have something to add regarding honing, the Norton or other stones, I would say that would be fine here. Forzato is not an issue for debate.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Lynn

Okay, Lynn, point taken.
And accepted.

Bart.

At twice the cost? Yes it would still be the benchmark stone for honing. Norton stones are for many many applications not just Razor honing, it is a old company that has established a longstanding place for itself in almost every area of honing and grinding. It is just coincidence that they make a single stone that is so suited to our purpose, I'm sure we are just a small blip on their sales radar. Way down under the heading of retail sales, woodworking.

A large measure of credit for the Norton being the benchmark that it is also has to go to Lynn and by association Classic Shaving. The two of which are in a huge way responsible for lighting the fire of Straight razor shaving across the whole United States. If they had taught us to hone using a pie plate and cheese we would all be debating the merits of that right now.

I'm not a big fan of tossing money into stones but I'm still very impressed with how smooth the 8K Norton is. I would think at twice the price it would still be a bargain.

I'm more than a little disturbed about the whole milking the cat thing though.

I have not got my Shapton Ceramic yet but I will say as of now you would have to pry my Norton and my Escher out of my cold dead hands. I like to play and have plenty other hones but when it is time to get serious and Hone the Norton and Escher always come out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

I had the distinct feeling that you disagree with Forzato being banned for his review on the Norton, and that you wanted to conduct your own little silent protest by provoking things just a tiny little bit further. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm famous for being wrong. And for defusing situations that didn't need defusing in the first place.

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Bart, wrong again! Not the case.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

What if all the stones out there jumped up to $1,000 each, which stone would you go to then.? I'd hone on a brick with milk!;) What if a Coticule went up to $1,000 and the Norton went down to a nickel? What would you go to then? What if the Norton went up to $1,000 and the Shapton Glass Stones cost went to 5 cents each? What would you go to then? What if.....................................

Good points, Lynn. I'm afraid sometimes I may be prone to dabbling in the "what if" game. I see your point here and it's taken. I'm still on my own personal quest for deciding on what stones I like the best and I do enjoy talking about the wide variety of stones. Sharpening in general is very interesting to me.

Personally, I find the Shapton Glass 4K and 8K are very similar stones to the Norton and are as consistent as the Norton. I would have no problem using them daily, but I hone so many razors every day that it's just easier for me to use the Norton Combo and keep flipping it vs. changing stones all the time.
Lynn

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Your thoughts on Norton vs. Shapton means tons to me Lynn, more so that coming from anyone else and I'm sure others agree. I may ask you about your professional opinion on other stones in the future, but by PM since that would be more appropriate.

Thanks guys.

Chris L

I really don't mean to poo poo any discussion. I am totally in favor of trying every stone out there and probably have. I have also experimented with virtually every method out there. As I said in another thread, I don't even decide if I like something without trying it on a hundred razors first, but all of this still doesn't mean that we will all end up using the same method or the same media. We tend to migrate to what is successful for us. What is important is that we all learn the best we can and teach more people who can hone their own razors. Personally, I have found the Norton and the Pyramid to be the easiest and most consistent for teaching new people. That doesn't make all the other methods or stones out there of less value, whether they can be taught to pre-schoolers or not. The Norton is not a sacred cow, but when you go back 10 years ago there wasn't much available that anyone knew about and it was incredibly hard to find someone who would teach you anything about straight razors. I'd say we've come a long way and encourage all of you to keep learning and sharing.

Thanks,

Lynn

Well, over this side of the world, and based on the current USD/AUD exchange rate and when I bought my Norton combo stone, you could say my Norton *did* cost almost double what it does in the US. Never regretted it for a minute, best money I ever spent.

(And at the time I got mine, there was very little available over here. The importers now have Shapton glass stones - the 16k goes for approx. AUD160 + postage, but to me it's a niche stone.)

"Brand new Norton?- $120. Bottled Evian? - $5. The ability to be totally self-reliant and sharpen my own razors? - Priceless!" :)

James.

I like my norton, but it was also a price decision.
With the 4/8 you get a lot of versatility and quality for a reasonable amount of money.
My coticules fall in the same category. Granted, the 8x3" was not cheap, but still afforable as far as large natural finishing stones go.

The escher might be even better, but I am not going to buy one to find out.
Over here I can buy Jap ceramic stones up to 10K for a reasonable price, and if Norton would double in price, I'd give them a try.

For me it is a matter of good results for a good price, not about the best result at any price.

Price matters, but only to a point. You could purchase
a Spyderco Fine and UF for less than the price of a 4/
8k, and forget about soaking and lapping while you're
at it. However, there are not that many folks out there
who have had the necessary time to evaluate them
and come up with equivalent methodologies such as
the Pyramid. This is still relatively undiscovered country.

I'm going to be experimenting with a DMTEE/Coticule/Escher
combination sometime in the next several weeks, which is
decidedly not a budget approach to honing (but perhaps
still less than the Shapton suite + DGLP) ;)

- Scott

For me the price points are not something I think about too awfully much. With a bit of savings, we can all purchase which or whatever hone.

Some of this is simply personal preference; like natural vs. artificial stones...or fast cutters vs. slow. "Comfortable" edges that are produced vs. those that need some smoothing.

It is hard not to be impatient....so many possibilities. But it is fun!

I've been hearing good things about the DMT8EE, things like "cuts as fast as the norton 4k, but as fine as the 8k". I've got one on the way because these guys: http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T!D8.htm have them for less than I got my 4k/8k and since it's diamond it should outlast the norton (not that I'll live to see that day, but it's the principle).

I'll have to experiment and report back, but if the rumors are true, the DMT already wins for convenience because there's no flipping the stone, no soaking, no lapping, no possible chipping/breaking. And if the performance is even close to what it should be, it's a done deal.

But I'll keep both either way.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I've been hearing good things about the DMT8EE, things like "cuts as fast as the norton 4k, but as fine as the 8k".

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I have only heard that from one guy from B&B, so maybe you should take that with a grain of salt until you find out for yourself. DMT makes great products, so it will likely be a very nice stone. Please let us know about your experiences with it and how it compares to the Norton.

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I have only heard that from one guy from B&B, so maybe you should take that with a grain of salt until you find out for yourself. DMT makes great products, so it will likely be a very nice stone. Please let us know about your experiences with it and how it compares to the Norton.

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Yeah, I wouldn't have paid full price for it since there isn't a huge movement in it's favor but I figured I should give it a try because it's on sale (HAD strikes again). I always enjoy a good experiment though, and it arrived today so we'll see how they compare.

And even if it isn't the best for razors, I have many other tools and knives that would benefit from that level of finish, so it won't go to waste either way.

All this talk is scaring me.....I will say nothing in fear of getting banned:ziplip:

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Originally Posted by iron maiden

All this talk is scaring me.....I will say nothing in fear of getting banned:ziplip:

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Don't be scared. :shrug:

Chris L

OK Chris....here goes my humble opinion

I think it is a good stone...obviously it has to be or it wouldn't have withstood the test of time this long. Considering men here are willing to pay huge amounts for razors, I doubt a buck fitty would be too much for a hone.

I'm looking to get one ordered...but I sure hope they don't get more expensive

The DMT 8EE is a great hone, it does not need to be lapped and is quick to put on an edge. Combined with a 4 sided strop and diamond pastes, it does quick work of any razor that does not have major problems and needs to be honed by a pro. This combo makes it possible to do light honing and quick sharpening in a minimum amount of time, something I do not have a lot of.

Later,
Richard Adams

Agreed. My, still limited, experience with the D8EE has been pleasant, took an old W&B wedge from a 1200 to the D8EE with no problems, left an edge comparable to that of the norton, if just a little harsh. I finished the edge on a Chinese 12k and CrO paste, and couldn't have been happier unless the edge had come from an entirely natural stone (which the norton is not either).

If the norton doubled in price, and the D8EE stayed at it's current price, I'd have no problem recommending it whole heartedly. But since they are at a similar price level, I say do your own research and weigh the factors, either one will get you where you want to go.

Wait a bit and as the dollar fails, everything will increase in price. (None of the Nortons are now made within our borders so this is an inevitability) Whether they will reach the cost touted earlier is unknown, but all things will cost many much more, soon.

So what's this line in the sand over which one can step to cause the wrath of the administrators/moderators to descend so hard as to become a persona non grata? It's possible that I'm sidling up to it unknowingly closely with my various pithy observations and should ask counsel of the drawers in sand to learn line locations.

As always, all help is greatly appreciated. As always also, honing advice available for the unaware. Milk dipped bricks sold cheap.:y