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  1. #1
    Senior Member blabbermouth ChrisL's Avatar
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    Default Norton 4000/8000..What if it cost more?

    Hey all:

    There was an interesting thread that started a month ago and therefore has aged. It was the review created by a user that is now banned. There were interesting points shared regarding opinions about the benchmark Norton 4000/8000.

    I think most would agree the Norton 4000/8000 is the current benchmark stone. My question I'd like to hear opinions on is:

    If the Norton 4000/8000 stone were to cost twice as much as it does now........do you think it would still be THE benchmark stone?

    Keep in mind at twice the price it would essentially match the Shapton ceramic on glass 4000 and 8000 grit stones (no soaking required).

    I posted this question in the advanced honing section rather than the basic section mainly because I will go on record saying that I too believe for the money I don't think the 4000/8000 can be beat and I do think it's a quality versatile workhorse of a stone and I didn't want to give anyone entering the world of honing the impression that I'm out to trash the Norton 4000/8000. I do personally think the cost of the Norton is a huge reason that it's the benchmark since I think there are other stones or combination of stones that are equal or better than the Norton but cost more. I am certainly no expert on honing and may therefore be speaking out of line, but I've wondered what others think about this.

    I guess really my question is that simple: If the Norton 4000/8000 stone were to cost twice as much as it does now........do you think it would still be THE benchmark stone?

    Chris L
    Last edited by ChrisL; 02-29-2008 at 01:31 AM.

  2. #2
    Member AFDavis11's Avatar
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    Not to sound like a sheep too much but I bought the Norton because I was told to, so cost wasn't really the issue.

    I kinda wished I'd just bought shave ready and a barber hone to be honest.

  3. #3
    BHAD cured Sticky's Avatar
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    I'm a big believer in barber hones myself. Unless I need to set an edge, it's all the hone I really need. I haven't bought a Norton 4k/8k yet.

  4. #4
    Razorsmith JoshEarl's Avatar
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    I think the Norton would still probably be very popular if it was twice the cost. I've heard it's easier to use than the Shapton line, which requires more precise lapping and a bit more skill to overcome the hones' sticky suction effect.

    The DMT/Belgian blue/coticule progression would probably get more attention, as it would be close to the cost of a Norton at that point.

    It's definitely versatile.

    Josh

  5. #5
    At this point in time... gssixgun's Avatar
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    OOOOooooo I think yer treading in dangerous waters here.....
    I think that this thread should be stopped ASAP, before many yes answers are recorded here, and the next thing we know the price on the Norton goes up !!! just because they can....
    Last edited by gssixgun; 02-29-2008 at 07:35 PM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member blabbermouth ChrisL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gssixgun View Post
    OOOOooooo I think yer treading in dangerous waters here.....
    I think that this thread should be stopped ASAP, before many yes answers are recorded here, and they next thing we know the price on the Norton goes up !!! just because they can....
    I figured my post may spawn a debate. I totally agree that the 4000/8000 is a versatile stone and for the money it can't be beat. I also think it could be agreed that it's the benchmark stone right now using a literal definition of what benchmark can mean: "any standard or reference by which others can be measured or judged".

    Just because it's THE benchmark stone (right now), I don't know if it could be considered a superlative stone (superlative: "of the highest kind, quality, or order; surpassing all else or others; supreme; extreme")

    Josh has a good point that twice the price would bring it into the DMT/yellow/blue pricepoints and I had mentioned that twice the price would bring it into the Shapton category. I think it would be futile to assert that there is ONE superlative stone or stones out there since there are so many good ones (Norton being one of them) and many different steel types to work with.

    My ultimate point is that the price of a Norton is a huge part of its popularity and if it were to cost twice as much, there would be other contenders out there vying for the "benchmark" spot Norton currently holds the title for. And as such, maybe for a newbie wanting to get into honing and not be strictly confined to only affording THE lowest cost 4000/8000 grit category, maybe the Norton would not be the first stone to purchase? At this point with so many other good stone combinations out there, I'd ask a newbie what his budget was: If it was tight....Norton 4000/8000 without question. If he had more money to spend towards honing, I personally wouldn't recommend the Norton. I admit I have only my own personal limited experience to go by but I'm just sharing my opinion.

    Chris L

  7. #7
    Coticule researcher
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    With all due respect, I think this is a "if my cat were a cow, I could milk her"- kinda thread.
    While I don't own a Norton myself, it is very clear to me that the majority of people here use it to hone their razors. I believe, with some practice, they all achieve superb results. It's not an overly expensive stone and it gets the job done.
    IF it would cost twice as much, IF half of them would arrive broken in the mail, IF it would self-ignite when using too much pressure, IF... IF...IF. Those if's aren't. Overall,the Norton is what it is: The Cassius Clay of the hones. He's fast and graciously efficient, sometimes controversial, but most people love him anyway.

    Some people will choose to use another hone, often for the simple fact alone that they don't want to use the preferred choice of the majority of people. I know this, 'cause I am that kind of bastard myself. No sense in denying it.

    For being a sentimental fool, I chose to hone with natural stones, and because I'm Belgian, that had to be the BBW and the Coticule. In the end I needed to buy a DMT in order to set a proper bevel on my ebay razors. A DMT!!! for crying out loud. How's that for a sentimental natural hone?
    Bottom line: my THREE hones have cost me way more than ONE combination Norton, that would have allowed me to do pretty much the same.
    IF the Norton would be priced the quadruple from what it is now, I would have been a smart man. Perhaps. But now, I'm just a happy man. Because my three stones fit my impossible character way more than a Norton ever could. How priceless is that?

  8. #8
    Senior Member blabbermouth ChrisL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    With all due respect, I think this is a "if my cat were a cow, I could milk her"- kinda thread.
    While I don't own a Norton myself, it is very clear to me that the majority of people here use it to hone their razors. I believe, with some practice, they all achieve superb results. It's not an overly expensive stone and it gets the job done.
    IF it would cost twice as much, IF half of them would arrive broken in the mail, IF it would self-ignite when using too much pressure, IF... IF...IF. Those if's aren't. Overall,the Norton is what it is: The Cassius Clay of the hones. He's fast and graciously efficient, sometimes controversial, but most people love him anyway.

    Some people will choose to use another hone, often for the simple fact alone that they don't want to use the preferred choice of the majority of people. I know this, 'cause I am that kind of bastard myself. No sense in denying it.

    For being a sentimental fool, I chose to hone with natural stones, and because I'm Belgian, that had to be the BBW and the Coticule. In the end I needed to buy a DMT in order to set a proper bevel on my ebay razors. A DMT!!! for crying out loud. How's that for a sentimental natural hone?
    Bottom line: my THREE hones have cost me way more than ONE combination Norton, that would have allowed me to do pretty much the same.
    IF the Norton would be priced the quadruple from what it is now, I would have been a smart man. Perhaps. But now, I'm just a happy man. Because my three stones fit my impossible character way more than a Norton ever could. How priceless is that?
    Hey Bart, no offense taken. You make some good points: It is what it is.

    In reviewing my post, I can see how some may interpret my thoughts as some sort of ax to grind against the Norton. Rest assured, I don't.

    I must admit I'm one of those guys too who enjoys the real or imagined pursuit of something better in all things straight razor as well as other things; "upgrade-itis" if you will.

    Knowing the little I do so far and again drawing on only a short period of honing my own razors to comfortable shave readiness for myself and......having "upgrade-itis" if I had to do it all over again, I would not have purchased my Norton 4000/8000 and did sell mine. Like you I have the BBW and Yellow and for setting bevels a Shapton 2000 grit on the way to replace my DMT 1200 I sold (there's that nasty upgrade-itis again!). I'd like to keep them all, but funding you know.

    If there are others just getting in to this that know themselves to be plagued with upgrade-itis, in my personal opinion, I think there are such a wide array of honing stone options that are easier to maintain than the 4000/8000 that I personally if asked (and I have been) would suggest alternatives in addition to the benchmark stone. Obviously any member can get that here (alternative info). Example: I don't own the DMT D8EE, I have experience with the D8E and I could see a D8E, D8EE and a $35 Chinese 12K as a neat alternative to the Norton 4000/8000.

    All in all if you can't tell, I love all of this stuff and I think it's cool that there are so many different and effective ways of skinning the same cat. Isn't it fun?!

  9. #9
    Coticule researcher
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    Of course it's great fun.
    It should be great fun and it will be great fun,
    as long as we don't make a religion out of it.

    I do think we are in agreement on this one. I only tried to protect you a bit from your own enthusiasm. I've seen what happens to guys who dishonor the Norton on this place...

    I think that most people who choose to shave with a straight are of the stubborn, self-righteous kind, and I absolutely mean that in the kindest possible way. It takes guts to go against the main stream and place a lethal edge against your throat and have a shave. After all, why do something the easy way, if it also could be done the hard way? That's more or less my personal little philosophy in life. Life is not about where you're heading, but about how you get there.

    Anyway, what I'm trying to say is: strong-minded people usually have strong opinions. It's great that there's so much respect for different opinions on this forum. I've seen other forums on the internet.

    I had the distinct feeling that you disagree with Forzato being banned for his review on the Norton, and that you wanted to conduct your own little silent protest by provoking things just a tiny little bit further. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm famous for being wrong. And for defusing situations that didn't need defusing in the first place.

    For what it's worth: I hope they banned Forzato for far more than his review on the Norton.

    The Norton is a great stone. It measures 3" x 8".

    There are other hones, and I wish I could try them all.
    Sadly, I ran out of money.

    Have fun with your hones. I'm kinda interested in how you use them: X-strokes and lap counts and when and how to progress, and whether you do pyramids on them or not.

    With great respect,

    Bart.

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  11. #10
      Lynn's Avatar
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    What if all the stones out there jumped up to $1,000 each, which stone would you go to then.?What if a Coticule went up to $1,000 and the Norton went down to a nickel? What would you go to then? What if the Norton went up to $1,000 and the Shapton Glass Stones cost went to 5 cents each? What would you go to then? What if.....................................

    Personally, I find the Shapton Glass 4K and 8K are very similar stones to the Norton and are as consistent as the Norton. I would have no problem using them daily, but I hone so many razors every day that it's just easier for me to use the Norton Combo and keep flipping it vs. changing stones all the time.

    If you guys have something to add regarding honing, the Norton or other stones, I would say that would be fine here. Forzato is not an issue for debate.

    Thanks for your cooperation.

    Lynn
    Last edited by Lynn; 03-01-2008 at 01:01 AM.

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