Calling the few Shapton 30K owners....

The Shapton 30K taunts me. I know it's probably overkill, but I won't be able to resist forever.

I was touching a few razors up on my Shapton 16k tonight (love that stone) and one of them prior to any touching up had a barely perceptible wire edge. Edge leading was a bit slow so I backhoned it off in about 10 passes (the wire edge was NOT from the 16K. I received the razor for free and had not honed it myself).

That got me thinking....have you guys that own the 30K tried just backhoning with that stone like you would stropping or on newspaper? Since the Shapton ceramics don't seem to friable and don't create a slurry, I could hardly think a 30K could create a wire edge (some time ago in PMs, both Lynn and Dr. Moss told me that they've never got wire edges off the 30K and Dr. Moss didn't think it would be practically of not impossible with the weight of the blade only).

BJ? Anyone else try spine leading? If not, can you try it as an experiment and tell us if you notice any difference?

Thanks.

Chris L

Give in and buy a 30K. Then buy a Nakayama to compare. Then sell the 30K :D

Chris, based on Dr. Moss's comments, I don't think I'd spend the $$$ on the 30k.

"This is quite intriguing, as Spyderco are on record as saying their fine and ultrafine hones are made from the same ceramic mix, and it is the surface pattern machined into them that gives the effective grit - there is a video on the web of a Spyderco rep describing the UF as 2000 mesh!. So my UF had a rather obvious pattern on the surface and it's now gone. I don't know what grit it is now equivalent to, but it seems to give a finer edge than the 30k Shapton. I assume the limiting factor here is either the particles size in the ceramic, or the scratch size made by the DGLP, whichever is the larger. "

That quote was taken from this thread on SMF.

For the record, I just traded off my UF.... I was not happy with it, it gave a fine finish but it just did not give me the feedback I needed unlike the natural hones such as the blue and yellow coticules. I finish on a home made Chromium Oxide pasted bench strop and it leaves very little to be desired in shaving performance except that it seems to need refreshing too often. I'm not sure if it's the steel or if it's my face..... the search for that answer continues.

Regards

Christian

I am awaiting my 30k.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Give in and buy a 30K. Then buy a Nakayama to compare. Then sell the 30K :D

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+1


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That's a big plus one.

Why would a nakayama be preferable to a 30k shapton?

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Originally Posted by RobertFontaine

Why would a nakayama be preferable to a 30k shapton?

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Basing this on Shapton Professional 30k versus my approx 3" x 5" Nakayama Maruichi...

1. Nakayamas are cheaper than shaptons
2. Nakayamas are harder (I prefer this, as do many others)
3. Nakayamas are more versatile (slurry, no slurry, dry)
4. Nakayamas smell nice
5. Nakayamas are each unique and one of a kind.

On the other hand...
6. A Nakayama of the same size as a Shapton would be very expensive and hard to find. (not that you need a 8" x 3"
7. Shaptons are easier to find/get (from what I can tell anyways)

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Give in and buy a 30K. Then buy a Nakayama to compare. Then sell the 30K :D

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What a great statement!

When I started reading Chris' opening, I was thinking, "No, no, buy a Nakayama....."

Then I read the rest of the posts. Yea, I just started using the Nakayama. I follow up from the 16K Shapton Ceramic Glass and finish with the Nakayama. I cannot believe it could ever get any better, unless maybe Jennifer Alba was there in the bathroom helping me lather. (hummmm!) :w

I know I'm gonna become a broken record about how great these Nakayama's are, but it is really true!

My Nkayama is about 7-3/4 x 1-3/4 x 3/4, - Perfect for me.

The edges this stone has produced are almost undiscribable. :D

Steve

My Nakayama is 7.1x2.55" or slightly bigger (can't remember exactly) and it is more expensive than a 30K shapton. Trust me on this one :D

The edges I get from it are sooooo good. I have 2 razors that were very hard to hone. I never could put a good edge on them. One has steel that is too hard I think (to the point of becoming britle) and the other had a very weird shape (my John barber).

I have honed them several times with various stones and got ok shaves, but not great.
Now using the nakayama to finish, they are the best shavers I've ever shaved with (together with one other that I finished on the coticule).

The really nice thing about Nakayamas is that you can't overhone on them.
If a razor passes the thumb nail test, I do 100 laps with light slurry on my narutaki hone, then 100 laps with light slurry on my nakayama hone, and I am ready. No special tests needed to see when it is ready. Just shave test and put it away.

That's what's keeping me from the shaptons for now: what I heard was that it is very easy to overhone on ceramic high grit stones like the shaptons.
My Nakayama is so good that I can't see myself using the coticule anymore in the near future. Maybe I can use it instead of the Narutaki stone. I'll do some more experimenting but all razors will be finished on my nakayama from now on.

Apart from that, the fact that they are naturals, look gorgeous (admittedly, you have to like the look of rough rock) and are all unique makes it an added bonus to use them.

Where would one find a Nakayama 30k?? I've heard good reviews about the edges they produce!

Thanks

Rick

There are 2 reputable sellers that I know of, and that some of us have done business with.
the first is Old_School, who is a member here. PM him if you are interested.
The other seller is So Yamashita, over at www.japan-tool.com. He is not a member here, but he is a nice guy to deal with, and very helpful as well. I trust him implicitly.

How much is a h one size nakayama?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

That's what's keeping me from the shaptons for now: what I heard was that it is very easy to overhone on ceramic high grit stones like the shaptons.

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I believe this to be false and I can't recall where the speculation or assertion originally came from. I've personally heard from both Lynn and Dr. Moss regarding the 30K, and both said essentially that overhoning if the proper light touch with no added pressure using the traditional honing method would be hard to imagine happening.

I have never yet overhoned on the 16K.

Maybe the Shapton overhoning legend was either related to lower grit stones or more likely a combination of lower grit Shaptons (cut quick quick quick) and the "Professional Series" which I personally have no experience with but have talked with Japanese woodworking style craftsman about.

Don't get me wrong, I like all stones and naturals will always have something over on manufactured stones in my book relating to their unique magical quality; I just wanted to get this out there that I disagree with Shapton Ceramic stones in the high grit range being prone to overhoning.

Chris L

I've looked at So's site a few times with drool. Question on the Japanese stones: I thought you lap the side that does NOT have the stamping. Some of his featured stones indicate the "back" as being the non-stamped side and some of these non-stamped sides given their rough natural state would look like they'd take days to lap. What's the scoop? I use all stones I buy rather than consider them collector pieces. But........If I was going to pay hundreds (and for some it seems hundreds and hundreds and hundreds), there's no WAY I'd lap off those stamps; clearly doing that would decrease the value of the stone significantly. To me that'd be like paying $700 for a YG Escher with full back label and end label and scraping them off after getting the stone. Not a chance.

I have to admit I committed that sin. Mea culpa.

My nakayama stone is only 14 mm thick. This is what kept the price below 4 figures. The bottom is very rough, and nakayamas are very hard. It would take ages to lap it flat.

I asked So what I should do, and he told me that sometimes a stone is lapped at the bottom to save the Kanji, but he told me he doesn't usually bother, and that there are no guarantees that the bottom is of as good a quality as the top.
These stones are hewn free from surrounding rock, and if the material against the bottom side would have been as good as the top side, than they wouldn't have cut it at that point, but they would have made a thicker stone (does my explanation make sense?).

After carefully considering my options, I took my DMT8C to the top of the stone and lapped it flat, destroying the kanji. I felt a pang of regret, but not more than that.
There is 1 kanji left on the side, identifying the hone, but that will be gone too once I laquer it.
I still have detailed pics of the kanji, to be included with the stone in the unlikely event I am ever to sell it.

But I really bought this stone for using it, not for looking at it or with the idea of improving my collection. If I ever want to get rid of this stone I can send it back to So, no problem. Not all stones he offered had Kanji on them, and the price didn't depend on them. There were unmarked stones that had nearly the same price per gram.

Btw I lapped the Kanji off my narutaki stone as well because lapping the bottom for the same reasons.

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Originally Posted by RobertFontaine

How much is a h one size nakayama?

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That depends on your definition of hone size :)
Apart from size, the shape is also important. A nice rectangular stone is more expensive than a trapezoid shaped stone.
I am not going to say how much mine cost, but it is much more expensive than a 30K shapton.

If you don't mind using narrower / shorter / non-rectangular stones, then I think you are looking at 200 - 300$. Those are the prices I saw on Old_School's webpage.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I have to admit I committed that sin. Mea culpa.

My nakayama stone is only 14 mm thick. This is what kept the price below 4 figures. The bottom is very rough, and nakayamas are very hard. It would take ages to lap it flat.

I asked So what I should do, and he told me that sometimes a stone is lapped at the bottom to save the Kanji, but he told me he doesn't usually bother, and that there are no guarantees that the bottom is of as good a quality as the top.
These stones are hewn free from surrounding rock, and if the material against the bottom side would have been as good as the top side, than they wouldn't have cut it at that point, but they would have made a thicker stone (does my explanation make sense?).

After carefully considering my options, I took my DMT8C to the top of the stone and lapped it flat, destroying the kanji. I felt a pang of regret, but not more than that.
There is 1 kanji left on the side, identifying the hone, but that will be gone too once I laquer it.
I still have detailed pics of the kanji, to be included with the stone in the unlikely event I am ever to sell it.

But I really bought this stone for using it, not for looking at it or with the idea of improving my collection. If I ever want to get rid of this stone I can send it back to So, no problem. Not all stones he offered had Kanji on them, and the price didn't depend on them. There were unmarked stones that had nearly the same price per gram.

Btw I lapped the Kanji off my narutaki stone as well because lapping the bottom for the same reasons.

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Yes - some you get lucky with and can lap the bottom. But a lot you can't because of the "skin". You really don't have a choice - no point forking out hundreds for a stone you never use because you are not prepared to lap it! An expert on Japanese natural stones can tell more from the surface, colour, and skin than the kanji stamps - I've been lead to believe that some unscrupulous miners will forge the kanji of better-pedigree stones to increase their value. Others might paint the skin so it resembles the skin of a better stone. So the kanji, while very cool, are not the defining feature of a natural Japanese stone. Those who know can tell a quality stone without the kanji. I imagine for these people it's as obvious as identifying a Dalmatian is to a dog breeder - you can put a sign around its neck saying "Poodle" all you want, but they know...

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes - some you get lucky with and can lap the bottom. But a lot you can't because of the "skin". You really don't have a choice - no point forking out hundreds for a stone you never use because you are not prepared to lap it!

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Those who know can tell a quality stone without the kanji. I imagine for these people it's as obvious as identifying a Dalmatian is to a dog breeder - you can put a sign around its neck saying "Poodle" all you want, but they know...
James.

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So is very good, but he told me his dad can indentify a stone AND judge quality simply by handling it and feeling the surface. This comes from a lifetime of working with them, and building a collection of > 35000 quality stones.

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Originally Posted by Chrisl

Question on the Japanese stones: I thought you lap the side that does NOT have the stamping. Some of his featured stones indicate the "back" as being the non-stamped side and some of these non-stamped sides given their rough natural state would look like they'd take days to lap. What's the scoop?

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Some people have asked me about saving the stamps in case they want to sell their stone in the future. For that reason I have suggested lapping the bottom. If you aren't going to sell your hone on and you feel you must lap it, then just do it. I lapped the bottom one that was quite rough and it took an hour on #400 diamond plate to smooth it out. Don't know how long the buyer spent lapping it 100% flat.
Some stones come lapped both sides, because there is a crack on one side.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

There is 1 kanji left on the side, identifying the hone, but that will be gone too once I laquer it.

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Your lacquer should be clear, so that the sides can still be seen and inspected "if" you were going to sell it on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes - some you get lucky with and can lap the bottom. But a lot you can't because of the "skin". You really don't have a choice - no point forking out hundreds for a stone you never use because you are not prepared to lap it! An expert on Japanese natural stones can tell more from the surface, colour, and skin than the kanji stamps - I've been lead to believe that some unscrupulous miners will forge the kanji of better-pedigree stones to increase their value. Others might paint the skin so it resembles the skin of a better stone. So the kanji, while very cool, are not the defining feature of a natural Japanese stone. Those who know can tell a quality stone without the kanji. I imagine for these people it's as obvious as identifying a Dalmatian is to a dog breeder - you can put a sign around its neck saying "Poodle" all you want, but they know...

James.

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Thats correct, the Kanji really only tells you which mine it came from. The only way to tell if its quality or not is to actually use it. Same with testing grit and hardness.
As I mentioned in my information thread I have found stones, that either don't have the "Maruka" stamp (which increases the value a lot) or the "Nihon Kamisori" stamp, yet they perform equally to the ones that do have the extra stamps

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Originally Posted by RobertFontaine

How much is a h one size nakayama?

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The vary in price depending on size, but if your talking the standard 8x3" size you are looking at an arm and a leg and perhaps a testicle.

I have one thats a little over 8x2x.07" and I'm selling it at at least 1/4 of what anyone else would squeeze out of you. Oh and yes its a Muraka stamped Maruichi Nakayama hone.:w

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

So the kanji, while very cool, are not the defining feature of a natural Japanese stone.

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Thanks for explaining that, James. It does make sense to me given that each Japanese stone does seem to have it's own uniqueness; Far and away, more than any other waterstone I know of, the Japanese stones due to irregular shape, skin, surface appearance, etc seem to be most often visually identifiable on an individual basis.

Given their uniqueness, I was incorrectly arguing a parallelism between the Japanese Stones and their identification (kanji) and the identifying stamps, if intact, (paper labels) on a vintage Thuringian like an Escher or Hohenzollern. I use my stones as well, rather than having them as high valued paper weights; however, that said, my point was IF I was to buy a $500+ Escher with intact labels, I would use that stone, but it would be foolish for me to scrub off or carelessly allow the labels to be destroyed since clearly so much of the value of those stones (since there is no nearly the variance in Thuringian appearance as there is with Japanese stones) is placed on the labels for identification and authentication. There's an almost incomparable difference between the value of an intact labeled Escher and a non-labeled Thuringian the owner claims is an Escher.



Chris L

On an escher, the situation is slightly diffeent because the label does not get in the way of honing / lapping.
So I agree you'd be a fool to remove it because there is no reason to.
With J Nats you often have no choice because lapping the bottom is usually not an option. In order to use it to its fullest, you have to lap it, thus destroying the kanji.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

On an escher, the situation is slightly diffeent because the label does not get in the way of honing / lapping.
So I agree you'd be a fool to remove it because there is no reason to.
With J Nats you often have no choice because lapping the bottom is usually not an option. In order to use it to its fullest, you have to lap it, thus destroying the kanji.

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Makes perfect sense to me, Bruno. Thanks for the clarification. This post more so the recent slight tangent it's gone on has been good for me. It really got me thinking in that previously, I staunchly considered myself a USER of razors and stones rather than a COLLECTOR. This post and the talk about the J Nats as you put it makes me admit to myself that I'm a User AND a Collector. You've shown that the J Nat stampings if honed away would not significantly reduce the value of the stones (that's good!). IF such an action DID significantly reduce (hundreds of dollars or more) the value of a stone that I would use, I'm admitting that would be tough for me to make such a decision to purchase such a stone. Now, if I could get a deal on an authentic J Nat that had no markings, all would be good! I have to sell some razors first to free up some cash. Then, there's the 2"x72" grinder I'm in the process of gathering materials for as well.....oh the list goes on and on!

Chris L

Read 'em and weep, fellas:

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Originally Posted by davabak

Read 'em and weep, fellas:

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:roflmao

Pfft! The Shapton 16M is, like, sooooo 5 minutes ago! I just received my 16T last week, and have a pre-order in on the 16Y. How you can even think about shaving off the 16M is beyond me.

:roflmao

James.

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Originally Posted by davabak

Read 'em and weep, fellas:

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Dude, your new stone polishes individual atoms individually it's so fine! Whoa!

Chris L

Thanks fellas.

Look what the FedEx guy just brought:

Tventy Vun! (Obscure Bugs Bunny reference, card game versus Black Jack Shellac)