Shaptoneers, please confirm something for me...

[Bart]

I hate tomatoes...

Well, actually I love them and digest them in some form almost daily, but I also hate them, 'cause they embarrass my high-end Wusthoff kitchen cutlery. Unless I freshly hone and steel those knifes, any mutt of a serrated knife will easily outperform my fine Wusthoffs. I store them in a wooden block, they always get rinsed and wiped by hand and are pampered like babies. At the same time, that serrated piece of junk practically lives in the dishwasher and corrodes to sharpness. Still, it cuts tomatoes very well on any day, while the Wusthoffs only really measure up when I bring them up to peak performance, a condition they loose rather rapidly.
Don't get me wrong: I love my Wusthoffs, couldn't live without them, and they cut food really well, even tomatoes. It's just that I like justice. Serrated crap sold by schmuck TV salesmen, equaling my precious babies, well that just ain't justice. And that's why I hate tomatoes.

For the same reason, I also hate hanging hairs. I can hone a razor on my DMT 1200 to a state where it perfoms the HHT extremely well. At that point, start honing it on a coticule with slurry, and notice how, with each stroke, the HHT-readiness of that razor is wiped away. I assumed that the principles of the serrated knife applied to this situation, very analog to the tomato observations I made above. If you remove the serrations from an edge, it takes honing to considerable keenness before that edge measures up again to the raw severing power of its serrated state.
Somehow I managed to co-exist peacefully with that knowledge. Nevertheless I often wondered if some compromise needs to be reached between striations (the razors equivalent of serrations) and a slick egde. The goal would be to find the Ueber razor edge, that combines durabilty, closeness and smoothness in the ideal mixture for my face.
Then AFDavis contibuted a link to a Popular Science Article defeating the above assumptions (or not?) I hate AFDavis.

Anyway, to cut to the chase, if the premise of the striations is false, than there's only one other possiblity left. A coticule with slurry must be doing something with the edge of the razor. I have my own theory about what exactly is going on, posted at Josh Earls "Coticule Chronicles", but since no one has showed any interest in that, I'm not going to reiterate.

After some further contemplation, I think the best way to be over with the "striations help the HHT" theory once and for all, is to perform a hone progression from low grit to high grit on a series of hones from one single family and find out if the HHT test does nothing but gradually improve when moving up the grit ladder. Or does the HHT passes just fine at grit 1200, worsens from there on to peak again at a much higher grit? I would really like to know. I can't think of a better hone family to perform this experiment on than the Shaptons. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any Shaptons, so I was wondering if any of the Shaptoneers on this forum are willing to perform such a test, or perhaps already know the outcome, and would be willing to share the results? I would be most grateful.

Thanks,

Bart.

[Russel Baldridge]

Well, not to throw a wrench in the gears, but the type of hone used will have an effect on how the edge develops.

If I use the DMT C to set a rough bevel, then move to the DMT E to bring it up to a sticky sharp edge that could pass the HHT, then use the DMT EE to further refine it, then move to some .5 diamond paste, the result is generally a consistent march from dull to frighteningly sharp with no apparent steps backwards.

The Coticule on the other hand abrades differently and provides much smoother results, so your observations may not be repeatable with the Shaptons. (don't know if that made much sense...)

Also, the striation do have a function for most cutting utensils. An 8k grit polish will sever tomatoes like butter, but the softer steel of kitchen cutlery can't maintain that kind of fine edge, so you loose that cutting ability rather rapidly. If you stopped at say, 1k, the edge would last a little longer and the tiny serrations would give a similar cutting power to the 8k (for culinary applications, not shaving).

(for the record, I generally don't even bother with the HHT until I get past 8k, TPT works faster for me)

[Bart]

We're on the same page, Russel. The idea may sprout that I over emphasize on the HHT, but I ''m really only considering it for the sake of the experiment.
The premise is this: If striations offer a substantial advantage with cutting hair, than the HHT should reflect that. The success of that test should peak with striations, dissipate when the striations are evened out, and improve again when the edge becomes so sharp that striations don't matter any more. So I would expect a fine HHT at 1200 grit level (approximately), so-so results around 6000-8000 grit level, and peak again at 12000 and above.

Of course one can't do pyramids on this experiment, and I refrain form using the coticule, because I have strong suspicions that other principles are going on at the same time with the use of coticules.

Are you saying, that with a progression on DMT-hones, you didn't find any evidence to sustain the above premise?

Thanks,

Bart.

[mparker762]

After some further contemplation, I think the best way to be over with the "striations help the HHT" theory once and for all..

The best way is to just get over the HHT - it's just a test. Unlike slicing tomatoes, it isn't useful in itself except as a party trick. It is popular because it's (a) easy (b) fast (c) has some loose correlation to sharpness.

As for the progression question, I find that HHT is best off the 1k-4k Shaptons then it goes down. It depends on the razor though. I don't worry about the HHT above about 4k Shapton - what I'm really interested in is how the hair reacts to the blade even if it doesn't pop in two immediately.

[ChrisL]

I have Shapton up to 16K. This is something I'd like to try. Now I have an excuse to be able to devote uninterrupted time down in "Razorville" as my wife calls it (the basement). Unfortunately I don't see myself getting this luxury for a week or two.

I love the HHT and actually use it every day not only because it's one of the many tests for sharpness, but also because it does have an exciting essence of parlor trick to it and I'm the amused audience. Every morning after stropping and before shaving the razor gets an HHT if anything else, then for fun. I have ultra fine blondish hair and until this year was convinced that even the sharpest razors or any razor couldn't sever my hair. Wrong. Ultra keen blades "ping" by hair now. I got better at honing.

My sharpest razor at this time is a DD Dwarf and I shave with it often. Easily passes the HHT every time.

I've heard it said that an ultra sharp razor can have an edge so sharp and so polished that it does not pass the HHT. I have trouble accepting that.

I saw Randy Tuttle earlier this year and he graciously showed me some of his wonderful collection. If I recall, he had a Hess Hair Milk razor that he said was far and away his SHARPEST razor he owned. I'll PM him and ask him if it passes the HHT. I've never owned or used a Feather blade. For those that have, do those blades pass the HHT?

Chris L

[randydance062449]

Hello ChrisL,

It was a Hess Otto's Special 200 Wedge, 5/8, single concave grind. They are no longer available, all sold out. That razor took the sharpest edge of any razor that I have honed.

Regarding the HHT, this test in no way guarantees a shaving sharp edge, sharp by my definition, not anyone else's. I have learned to use the HHT and standardized it on the 8K Norton. I do not use it for any other hone.
Using the HHT, off the 8K norton, with my hair, can tell me when the razor is ready for a shave test or the next step in my honing progression.
Each person has to develop their own set of tests and learn to correlate the results with whatever they seek.

The HHT is not just a parlor trick. Some guys have learned how to make it useful, just like the TPT, and for some people it simply is not an option. The key is standardization of your tests.

Just my two cents,

[mparker762]

I forgot to mention above that I've got the 1, 2, 4, 8, 15, and 30k Shaptons

I've never owned or used a Feather blade. For those that have, do those blades pass the HHT?

Feathers don't pass HHT for me. Wal-Mart Personnas do though.

[ChrisL]

Hello ChrisL,

It was a Hess Otto's Special 200 Wedge, 5/8, single concave grind. They are no longer available, all sold out. That razor took the sharpest edge of any razor that I have honed.

Regarding the HHT, this test in no way guarantees a shaving sharp edge, sharp by my definition, not anyone else's. I have learned to use the HHT and standardized it on the 8K Norton. I do not use it for any other hone.
Using the HHT, off the 8K norton, with my hair, can tell me when the razor is ready for a shave test or the next step in my honing progression.
Each person has to develop their own set of tests and learn to correlate the results with whatever they seek.

The HHT is not just a parlor trick. Some guys have learned how to make it useful, just like the TPT, and for some people it simply is not an option. The key is standardization of your tests.

Just my two cents,

Ah yes, a Hess Otto's Special 200 Wedge. That was a very nice looking razor!! Thanks for adding to this post so quickly.

I absolutely agree that the HHT does not guarantee a shaving sharp edge. Others pass HHT off their DMT D8E 1200 grit diamond plates and I can pass the HHT off my Shapton 2000 I've used for bevel setting. I would never shave off those grits.

What I wonder, can a truly wicked sharp (maybe even one so sharp that comfort is compromised) edge fail the HHT? Do Feather blades fail the HHT? Out of curiousity, does your Otto's Special pass or fail the HHT?

To be clear, I do believe an edge that fails the HHT can give a comfortable or at the least an irritation free shave. Since a coarse edge (1200, 2000 grit) can pass the HHT and since an edge can shave and fail the HHT, therein lies the HHT's inability to be a uniform sharpness test. However, and here's where I think I've gone full circle to end up right where Bart started with this post and share his same question:

If an edge that goes from passing HHT on lower grit stones, to failing the HHT on polishing stones but shaving well......would that same edge again pass the HHT if polished at a higher grit or to a keener level?

Chris L

Randy will probably add more to this post, but he did confirm for me in a PM that ALL his razors pass the HHT after stropping and moreover, he will not shave with a razor that does not pass the HHT after stropping. Even though I believe a shaving edge failing the HHT can yield good or great shaves because members over time have said so, I personally have not had comfortable shaves with razors that after stropping fail the HHT.

[ChrisL]

I forgot to mention above that I've got the 1, 2, 4, 8, 15, and 30k Shaptons



Feathers don't pass HHT for me. Wal-Mart Personnas do though.

Interesting. Hmmmm....I'll have to think about this some more.

Chris L

[randydance062449]

If an edge that goes from passing HHT on lower grit stones, to failing the HHT on polishing stones but shaving well......would that same edge again pass the HHT if polished at a higher grit or to a keener level?

Chris L
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IMHO the answer to that will depend upon your hair, the razor and the hone used.