Cool I'll try that. I have a big slab of chrome ox in paste form, like rouge, that I got from woodcraft. Maybe I'll give away 1" slices of it, since I have such an excess.
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Cool I'll try that. I have a big slab of chrome ox in paste form, like rouge, that I got from woodcraft. Maybe I'll give away 1" slices of it, since I have such an excess.
hmm, I'm not quite following. One variable would seem to be how much cro is on the strop. I don't use much but one thing I have noticed is by and large it remains green- very little to no graying from steel. If I use it on tarnish it turns black rather quickly.
This leads me to believe that the amount of material removed is incredibly small.
As has been mentioned there is very little to know sharpening effect from linen, leather it depends.
I think you just did a better more concentrated honing effort, the lack of cro has nothing to do with it.
Another thing that confuses me is some seem to imply, no, say there is a super smooth edge hiding behind the wire. I don't understand how this is possible
I don't understand it either, but my blades pass the HHT for the first time ever, and shave well right after honing. So I'm going to keep at it & see what happens.
Randy has said that the linen is strictly a burnisher, it has no abrasive properties. If that's so, it's one hell of an aggressive burnisher because it will eat your edge right off if you don't have enough wax on it. I'm going to put forth the theory that there's some magic in removing the wire edge using a hellacious burnisher, instead of, say, slicing the edge across some soft plastic. But since I just pulled that theory out of my ass, you probably shouldn't take it all that seriously.
FWIW, I don't think the magic is the lack of Cr02, but rather, the removal of the wire edge. I think the Cr02 is not removing the wire edge. But Cr02 is a wonderful polisher and I like it a lot, except I don't like the way it convexes the edge, requiring me to eventually reset the bevel.
the HHT is a point for my previous comment with your honing.
I understand hht to be shaving hair above the skin. Though now I'm typing I ask: Is it cleaving the single hair pinched between the fingers. I find there is a difference between the two abilities. I have always understood plain strops to be corrective- straightening, aligning the edge, burnishing. not as sharpeners; seems to me for a strop to be pushing you to hht it must be sharpening or... see above.
"eat your edge" is not descriptive enough for me to get it... from rolling up onto the edge before you treated to stiffen it? from the angle? or from it's prior treatment. I know nothing of cloth strops; never had one
By this point in the game, my honing is pretty consistent. It's not that I didn't get BBS shaves before, it's that (1) the first one or two after honing were lousy, and (2) by the end of the month, by bevel would be all rounded to hell. (1) was (I think) because I was removing the wire edge with my face, (2) was because that's what a polished strop does.
The HHT is when you take a long hair from your girlfriend's hairbrush, and, holding one end of it, cut it in half. It's a neat parlor trick that has some correlation to sharpness, but is not a gold standard or anything. My slightly convexed polished edges would not pass the HHT, but they were wonderful shavers (at least until the bevel rounded off completely).
Here's the deal with the canvas or linen or whatever the hell it is. It's an antique strop & was all crudded up, so I cleaned it. When I was done, there was still enough wax in it to make it stiff, but not enough to fill in the rough cobblestone texture of the weave. I stropped on it as normal (no, I didn't lift the spine, I'm pretty decent at stropping) and it completely removed the cutting edge. I mean my razor was DULL. You know that trick where you slice a matchstick to completely remove the existing edge before starting from scratch? It was like that. Like I'd used it to slice wood. I remembered that the one time I used the linen in the past before I cleaned it, it didn't do that. So I re-waxed it, and voila.
If the linen is so great, you're asking, why didn't I fall in love with it the first time I tried it? because it was smeared with jeweler's rouge, which is a fairly aggressive polishing compound. The rouge was part of the crap I cleaned off. In fact, getting the rouge off was my motivation for cleaning it. I'm sure I didn't get all of it off, but I got most of it off, & buried the remains under a layer of fresh wax. So that's good enough for me.
But the punch line is, IDK exactly what the bare fabric is doing, but whatever it's doing, it does it pretty aggressively. Aggressively enough to turn your razor into a butter knife if you don't have enough wax on it. So stropping on cloth might be similar to backhoning, which is something knife sharpener guys will do to remove the wire edge. (But once again, I just pulled that out of my ass, so it might or might not be true).
Johnny my questions are for my learning, not to bust your stones on your observations or question your skill. Good thing for me this is no more complicated than a simple hunk of hardened steel or I'd never get it;)
The cool thing is your linen is all refreshed and working. Hopefully I will find a nice used one soon.
I'm starting rather early this morning so i thought I'd try a simple test. I tried hht with the razor I've been using. no go. after 50 lineal feet stropping plain leather paddle it did; post shave back to no
we'll just have to see how it shaves over the next few days as this one has been fairly low on the performance scale. at 330 am its a lil early for me to feel like peering through the scope...
Anyway after posting yesterday I started asking myself why, how I became such a CrO fanboy. It would be nice to omit I think I'll lay off it for some time as well.
The fabric is doing exactly what Randy said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny J
The jewelers rouge is what wipes of your wiry edges.
Covering it with a thick layer of wax, well... I think that leaves you stropping on wax instead of the material underneath it, regardless what that is. Perhaps over time the rouge will peak through again. Perhaps not. I don't think this is a very reliable method to get consistent results.
IMHO, I really think there's some glitch in your honing method and I think it would be better to prevent that glitch from happening, than trying to fix it with a wax over paste strop.
Not that I don't like unconventional methods, quite the contrary actually, but somewhere along the line of this thread, things just stopped making sense to me. Could easily be me not getting it.
Kind regards,
Bart.
I think the honing method might be fine, rather the hones being used are not up to the task. Maybe you mean the same thing. I have also been thinking during this thread, that perhaps its best to ditch the strop altogether and get a brand new one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
That makes two of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Hey Kevin, I didn't think you were busting my chops, I'm just trying to anticipate questions before they arise to keep thee thread down to a reasonable length. In text you lose cues like facial expression, tone of voice, etc, so it's easy to misunderstand people's intentions.
Old barber hones are indeed not considered all that great in this day and age. I am told that a Norton stone or a Coticule is less prone to raising a wire edge. I've never used either, so I don't know.
As far as unconventional...I'm told barber hone -> linen -> leather is about as conventional as it gets. The way I treated the strop is even right out of a 1960s barbering textbook: rub with a candle, smooth with a glass bottle. The cloth has a very bumpy texture, so most of the wax is filling the voids between the bumps. The heads of the bumps are still peeking through, because I mashed everything down with the glass bottle. It's possible that the remnants of ferric oxide are what's really responsible for removing the wire edge. I don't know. There must be some reason why the previous owner put it on there.
I'm going to keep at it for a while & see if the linen allows me to do touch-ups on the Lithide hone without getting a wire edge. If so, I'll ditch the Cr02 & plant the victory flag. That's all I was hoping to achieve here: to find a method of touching-up that doesn't round my bevel off. If I encounter some other problem that all of this causes, I'll report on it in this thread.
It's entirely possible that a Norton would eliminate the need to burnish the wire edge off, by simply not raising a wire edge. What can I say. I'm hell bent & determined to do this the way my grandfather did it. Consider it the final triumph of stubbornness over common sense.
Side note: I can't help wondering if linen strops fell out of use because modern stones don't raise a wire edge like that. Maybe Randy knows.
I don't understand any of this either, but if it solves my problem, understanding can come later. For now I want to see how the edge behaves over the long haul when I touch it up using hone/linen/leather instead of Cr02/leather.
I was watching Lynn's webcast last night. There's a part where he comments on the various brands of barberhones. He stated that in the old days they were merely used for touch-ups. When the strop no longer brought a razor in great shaving shape, people used VERY FEW laps on a barber hone, sort of to revive the edge a little. Lynn said that's why they all came with instructions to do only 4 or 5 laps, and that their main purpose was to touch-up an edge in between real honing jobs.
In the old days, most people didn't hone their own razors. They had a strop to keep it going and some had a barberhone to do a minor touch-ups when time was not yet due to go to town, or for the traveling sharpening guy's monthly visit to the village square.
I'm not sure whether you really know what the red compound on that linen strop is. Form where I stand, it could be anything: jewelers rouge, or DOVO red paste, or something else. DOVO red paste is rated 2 to 4 micron grit size. That is pretty coarse. (CrO is 0,5 micron) The faintest hint of any paste on a leather strop will work very well. It actually is key to keep paste very faint for best results. I don't know if the same applies to linen strops, but if so, you've thrown a monkey wrench into your honing sequence, that makes it impossible to tell what's going on, even if you manage to get a good edge out of it.
Of course, if all this happily leads to the edge you desire, who am I to question that?:)
Kind regards,
Bart.
I'm going to jump back in here, I am so confused here as to what yer actual sharpening process is, I have re-read this thread several times since it started and I think I have it right that you're actually doing all yer honing on Barber hones???? More power to ya...
To clarify a little on just the strops, the linen or cotton on strops isn't really designed to do anything other than clean off the steel, it cleans off the microscopic rust and rough to present bright clean steel to the leather, some believe it warms the steel which helps the leather to align the edge better....
The leather aligns the edge, it puts on the final little UMmmmmpf of sharpness and smoothness for the shave...
Simply put each razor has to go through this process, one way or another, whether you do it nowadays, or the factory did it in the old days.......
1. Set the bevel (approximately 1k grit) 2. Sharpen the bevel (approximately 4k grit) 3. Polish the sharp edge ( approximately 8k grit) 4. Smooth the edge (optional, above 10k grit, or pastes) You can do this with any abrasives you want, but somehow, you will have to climb each step, take two steps at a time, and shortcut that process, and you're going to stumble, or the edge is going to act in a way that you are not expecting.....
Now looking to the past, with many NOS vintage razors you will find "Hair Tested at the Factory", markings, which is how they came, then you would have a razor that a slick smooth barber's hone would keep shaving sharp with the strops for many years to come, in fact most of the razors offered free re-honing in the old days!!!!!!!!
Nowadays we have to restore these to shaving sharp, or create shaving sharp with the new factory ones, so things are a little different....
This of course is JMHO and some experience thrown in, and written with much respect to all......
I would sugest you use a hard cake soap to re-fill the strop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny J
PuFF
Barber hones can and do give a great edge when care is taken. I have and still do use barber hones more than any other hone I possess for reviving an edge. I have even brought Ebay specials up to shave sharp with just a small range of barber hones.
Be aware though that they are prone to fooling the unwary that the razor is sharp :) Wire edges can come without you knowing. Back honing for a few strokes then finishing with a few normal will cure this. X pattern is a must IMO. If it feels sharp in the test...try a couple more strokes to see what happens ;) Even a hone advertised as a dry hone...use water/lather.
I would evaluate your honing if Chromium or linen is needed after honing. They will get the razor up to a shave edge but this edge is most likely weak or damaged to the point where it won't last. You should only need plain leather after you honed the razor. Linen is a tool for reviving an edge....how it does this is a matter on contention and not appropriate for this thread :D another pointer is the quantity of reps on the leather, when 30-50 should be more than adequate.
Tension in a pasted strop is critical and should be bar tight. Pressure should be ultra light and X pattern. I would also recommend that half the strokes should be done in a toe leading fashion (following hone scratch pattern). This is I found a must with diamond pastes. Chromium for me works best when used little and only when linen fails to revive, pointing to true dulling has happened and the hone is calling. This is the same with all pastes but a razor can be kept going for a very long time with pastes if used correctly. Convexing of the edge points to slack pasted strop imo.
Try looking on Ebay for old strops that have a good linen side that still looks stiff. This will replace your washed one that possibly still has paste in the weave. Clean it with stiff lather but leave the last coating of lather to dry on the linen. When dry, burnish it with the palm of the hand like you do to prep the leather strop before stropping.
I've spouted on enough...sorry
PuFF
Gssixgun; yes, all the hones I listed in my progression are barber hones. It's hard to know what the grits really are, but the coarsest one seems like it's around 1k and the finest is around 10K or thereabouts. The coarse one is my bevel-setter. I always hone in an X-pattern because the hones are too small to hone any other way.
It's also true that I don't know what that red stuff is (or rather, was). I'm guessing ferric oxide, but it could have been anything.
There's no slack in my pasted strop because it's a loom strop set as tight as it will go.
Puffah, earlier in this thread sixgun suggested using the linen after honing to remove the wire edge, and it actually seems to work. But you're saying backhoning would be better? I've never tried that. But why is it bad to do it with the linen if it seems to work?
Now I'm twice as confused as when I started.
Confucius said a fanatic is someone who redoubles his efforts while losing sight of his goal, so let me restate the goal. The coarseness of my beard makes frequent touch-ups necessary. When I first started shaving, I'd do the touch-ups on the Lithide hone, but that would lead to a wire edge that would break off. Then I started doing touch-ups on Cr02. This was better than doing them on the hone. It didn't create a burr anymore. But it would eventually convex my edge into oblivion.
My third stab is now to revert to touching up on the Lithide hone, but to use the linen (1) to make touch-ups less frequent, and (2) to remove any wire edge that might result. I also might try stab #4: backhoning to remove the wire edge, and linen to reduce the frequency of touch-ups.
There are too many goddamn variables & I'm getting lost in them all.
Not that you havent recieved a bunch of great advice here but when I read your first post something caught my eye straight away....you said ' your monthly honing'. in my experience a razor does not have to be or shouldnt be honed monthly, therefore as others have already said you may be getting a wire edge from over honing...literally too much honing.
Im not saying Im definately right but a well honed razor should last 3-6 months anyways depending on the razor, condition and quality of edge to start with, if your lucky enough to have a sizeable rotation it will last longer.
Honing isnt easy , this I know, i learned on skype from randydance using video and I have picked up tips along the way, from Joe Chandler, GSsixgun, Lynn and a few others as there are so many to mention, I hope you have recieved all the info and found it useful and have been able to resolve your issues.
I also hope you dont mind me chiming in, im no expert but i understand.
regards,simon
PS I see you say your beard is very coarse....Ive heard this sooooo much...most guys say it.....however my point wasnt to make fun...have you considered maybe a different approach to your face prep also, this may help with the amount of ' touching up you have to do...or considering your razor..different size, grind, wedge etc?
Just ideas.
Update:
Puff my man, you are a genius. All you guys who suspected there was a problem with my honing were right. The problem is, as Puff says, barber hones are particularly prone to raising a burr, which I tried removing in three different incorrect ways: with my face, with Cr02, and with linen. While the linen does remove the burr, it's not hard to imagine what the edge would look like under an electron microscope after the burr has been ripped off.
So instead I tried as puff suggests, finishing my honing with 3-5 back strokes, then 5 forward strokes (being careful to follow the scratch pattern on the backstroke, i.e. start the X at the toe). I also honed wet, as Puff also suggests. First I tried it on a dull razor that needed the whole hone progression. Then I tried it on a sharp razor using only the Lithide hone to see if I could touch it up, and then remove the burr that results.
In both cases, it is as Puff says; all I need is the hone & plain leather, no Cr02 or linen necessary.
Now the questions I have to resolve experimentally are:
(1) Will a nicely backhoned edge last longer? With my previous honing method, I could feel the quality of the shave starting to deteriorate by the 3rd shave. Let's see if this edge is more durable.
(2) When the shave quality does start to deteriorate, can I bring it back with the linen & delay having to touch it up? I suppose now that Puff has told me how to touch it up without raising a burr, I suppose there's no harm in frequent touch-ups other than wear on the razor, but if you can cut the wear down, why not, eh?
Oh, another interesting thing: on the first one or two back-strokes I can actually feel the scraping non-smoothness of the burr being dragged across the hone. When the back-stroke glides as smoothly as the forward stroke, it's time to stop. This seems to take 3-5 strokes.
Addendum: to answer Simon's questions, yes I've tried those things & they definitely do help. Prep is key. Without good prep I can't get a good shave with any razor, no matter how good the edge is. My prep routine is: degrease face with soap, hot towel or shower, shave oil, lather, let lather soak in while stropping, re-lather. I highly recommend this routine. I also have a preference for big half-hollow blades over small half-hollow or small wedge blades. I haven't been able to get my hands on a big wedge to try it.
Johnny,
That's all great news.
PuFFah indeed summed it all up.
About edge durability...
In my experience and edge that is formed by means of "push-honing" lasts much longer than an edge formed by "pull-honing" (backhoning or stropping on abrasive pastes). I think that's the reason why so many seasoned honers prefer to build an edge on hones and consider going to pastes a sort of emergency solution, if nothing else seems to work.
There are different physical phenomena at work with the two different ways to build an edge: to simplify, push-honing exposes a hard steel edge that already was present underneath the dull shaped bevel to begin with. All honing relies on two principles. "Plastic flow" is basically the same thing that happens during production of cold or hot rolled steel. "Debris deposit" is the piling up of abraded particles along the edge. Pull-honing leads to the very tip of the edge being formed by debris deposit and and plastic transformed steel...
I think beard coarseness plays only a minor part in edge durability, considered the above, and also considered that factors like stropping habits, beard preparation, steel hardness and razor storage are to be accounted for as well.
I also think that CrO can be used for two different purposes:
1. To further polish an already outstandingly keen edge, in order to augment shaving comfort.
2. To gain additional sharpness at an otherwise sub-par edge.
The shaves of the latter method can be good, but one needs to accept that those edges don't last very long. Lately I've heard that a Nakayama hone can replace CrO for both purposes, without the downside of the pull-honed edge, but I've not had the good fortune yet of first hand experience with that.
Anyway, I'm glad you finally nailed down the caveats of your honing method with barberhones. I'm sure this can help many others, and although somewhere in the middle of this thread things got very confusing, I'm gonna rate it 5 stars.
I'm not so sure about your plastic flow theory Bart. The edge is not extruded or stretched out as far as I know, nor does it exist underneath a shaped bevel. The edge is developed through abrasion- the removal of metal. I picture flow to be thinning of the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
I'll have to study on the debris deposit aspect some more, perhaps review my Veerhoven (sp)
A razor is the only thing I have ever stropped with paste or otherwise. I noticed a long time ago wood carvers using relatively coarse novacs were all about stropping. They were constantly returning to the strop which led me to surmise that while their tools were sharp the edge was left weak and unsupported. In the mid/late 80's King stones were all I could find locally a should remain a good option for beginners today
I usually like to put on my mystic's robes when sharpening, there is much going on on that ultrafine scale that I cannot see. You have to learn how to feel it. The fact that several have voiced their view that 20-30x is enough magnification to see what's happening kinda supports a similar view.
I'd give it 5 stars as well.
Actually, Verhoeven is were I got most of the information I wrote about in my previous post.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf
But whatever the explanation, that a "pull-honed" edge is weaker, is something that can easily be backed by empirical evidence: I believe many people can confirm that from their own experience.
Best regards,
Bart.
I read the paper in your link and I didn't find anything that supports your point. Maybe you could quote if for me. What I did find was this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
The major conclusion of the study is that of the three honing methods studied, the best method for removing the bur and setting the edge angle is clearly a final polish on leather loaded with a polishing compound such as the chromium oxide or diamond compounds used here.
Esteemed colleageus and research associates,
OK, so here is a thread about my new razor: Wustof 5/8
I have pics of the edge at 200x coming right off the 1um diamond lapping film (honed straight up and down, dry).
Then the same edge after 15 laps on a lightly coated chrome ox hanging strop (stropped at an angle)
and then stropped on new TM "smooth" cavas and latigo (straight up and down, as it is a 3" strop, I also mistakenly called it "linen" for some sleep deprived reason...? It's truly canvas).
As can be seen, the bevel has been rounded/smoothed out significantly, and striations are visible in a diagonal direction.
So, the abrasion was carried out by the chrome ox (as per the diagonal striations), and there is little or no visual evidence of what the subsequent canvas and latigo stropping did to the edge. However, perhaps they contribute to simply smoothing out the striations that are there.
As I stated in that post, next time I'll skip the chrome ox and see what canvas and latigo do by themselves.
Nice thread & discussion, thanks guys!
QUOTE: "It seems likely to this author that two mechanismsQuote:
Originally Posted by Chimensch
give rise to bur formation along the edge during sharpening.
(1) Debris Deposit The polishing and grinding on the
metal faces of a knife blade during sharpening produces an
abrasive polishing action. One may think of this action as
like having thousands of little ploughs (abrasive particles)
that move along the surface pushing scraped up metal, debris,
in front of them. If the abrasion direction is away-from the
edge, direction A of Fig. 3, then the debris will be deposited
along the edge on the face opposite the face being abraded. If the abrasion direction is
into the edge, direction I of Fig. 3, one would not expect debris pile-up along the edge as
now it is being pushed away from the edge. However, as will be shown later, debris does
collect at the edge for abrasion in the I direction, although to a reduced extent. There
must be a subtle mechanism of debris deposit along the edge, perhaps involving some
type of back eddies at the edge.
(2) Bending The width of the blade at the edge and just behind it is extremely thin.
Hence the force against the edge from the abrasive media will result in large stresses,
force per area, at the edge, which can lead to plastic flow (bending) of the edge region.
(Note: The small bumps running parallel to the edge, such as the two labeled bending flow in the Up face
of Fig. 1, result from a small bending flow of the edge region away from your view.)
The combination of the bent edge and the collected debris forms a bur on the side of the
edge located away from the abrading media. (Some authors [1] call this deformed edge and
accumulated metal debris a "wire", but the term bur will be used here.) Burs
that fold around the edge can be called fold-over burs and they
have a variety of shapes with two examples shown in Fig. 2(B).
The edge burs of Fig. 2(A) show little bur material and appear to
be edges that have simply been rounded during sharpening.
However, such edges will be termed "edge burs" here to indicate
a type of edge formed in sharpening that differs from a fold-over
bur." END OF QUOTE
Verhoevens paper is largely focused on regular knife sharpening, where one deliberately hones one side of the knife until a bur is raised raised, then hones the other side till the bur is raised on the opposing side and finally removes that bur. We all know that razors are sharpened differently, but still Verhoeven's paper offers valuable information about what happens at the surface of an edge during honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimensch
Apart from that, I own a Tormek sharpening machine, and use that a lot for sharpening various woodworking tools. On a Tormek you can choose whether the wheel turns into the edge or away from the edge. Regardless the method it's very easy to make a plane blade shave hair on a Tormek. But when honed with the wheel turning away from the edge, a blade dulls much sooner. Similar results I get when honing a razor on pasted strops. Keeness is excellent, but durability is not.
Bart.
But, in effect, when honing a razor we use both methods. Towards the blade with the hone and then away to smooth with abrasive paste. You seem to be saying that one should only use an increasingly fine series of hones and never paste. I don't see anything wrong with setting the bevel with a hone and then smoothing with paste. This would seem to be the best of both worlds, according to Verhoven. In other words, you seem to be making it an either/or and I don't think that's the conclusion that Verhoven would have made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
I'm not speaking in favor of either of both methods. I'm only saying that an edge that's the result of pull-honing is less durable. Not that it is less sharp, or less suitable for shaving. Verhoeven recommends a pasted strop for bur removal. For sharpening razors, the idea is that one doesn't need the remove any bur. Johnny's method with the exclusive use of barber hones is a bit of an exception to that rule, but even in that case, it seems to be better to remove the wire edge (bur) by backhoning a few strokes and then proceed with a few final normal strokes. If you'd use the knife method on a razor by deliberately raising a bur and removing it with a CrO strop, you'd get what Johnny had when he started this thread: an fine shaving edge that needs very frequent touch-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimensch
I'm convinced there are other methods yielding better results, but I'm NOT saying people should stay away from pastes. I'm only convinced that it decreases the "mean time before honing" to some extent.
Best regards,
Bart.
Nice pictures. I can clearly see that irregularities in the honed edge (almost look like tiny chips) are nearly all smoothed out. I can't quite decide whether the rounding over effect is essentially reducing the angleQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
or is it just thinning it out. eventually though it would seem to lead to less supportive material at the near edge steel.
__
Plastic flow = bending that I can understand. The monkey wrench effect of sharpening razors lies for me at least in their extreme flexibility. I feel myself using too much pressure while stropping yet appear powerless to stop. I sure have lightened up on the hones, though still I may be a bit heavy.
I think in back stropping on paste there would be far less material to be deposited as compared to 8g stone. I wonder how much effect or difference there is back honing wet vs dry
fwiw In the experiments on flat hones the blade was flipped and the opposite face honed 1/1 pass on each face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny J
I am glad that you getting on top of the problem. I am pleased that my small input has helped. Good luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny J
PuFF
Update: using my new method, I still notice deterioration after my 3rd shave, but the magnitude of the deterioration is much less severe. Under my Cr02 method, the 3rd shave was no longer BBS in the ATG direction, forcing me to touch up on the Cr02. Now, all I notice is that the 3rd shave is less comfortable and the alum stings a lot more, but the shave is still BBS ATG. I am hopeful that I can bring it back in line using the linen, and that my eventual touch-up on the Lithide hone can be done in very few strokes. I'll let you all know how it goes.
One question and it might have been answered and I just missed it..... I see it is a W&B but what kind of grind is the razor ???
All my razors shave better after 2/3 shaves. I like to call it the 'bedding in' phase.
There was a thread before where we discussed this in depth. (maybe lost in crash though)
Sixgun: it's a wide but paper thin full hollow and the steel is not very hard. Maybe that's why it's so delicate.
Poona: you might want to try the backhoning technique that Puffah describes in this thread. I used to have that bedding-in period too, but in my case what was going on during the bedding-in was, I was removing the burr left over from honing...with my face. This might or might not be your problem (for example, they tell me that coticules do not raise a burr) but backhoning might be worth a try just to see if it does eliminate your bedding-in period.
Hehe, it's def not burr matey :D
What I'm referring to as the bedding-in phase where the razor becomes a little more dull that straight off the hone and subsequently provides with me better shaves. The razor hits a 'peak' around this time.
Of course, this is probably different for others as many factors/variables are involved.
It's a pity I can't find the thread I mentioned as it was a very detailed discussion which most folk agreed with me on and would take too long to go through and explain all again.
Is it off topic to ask why the couticule will not raise a bur. I only recall seeing it stated as an opinion of experience without explanation
If we look back at Verhoeven's micrographs isn't there always a bur
The scale of the object is different I realize the ones we can see and feel and the ones that exist in the world of ESM
Graham:Quote:
Originally Posted by poona
Yes I remember that thread as well we were discussing the merits of the blade really coming into being sharp after the first shave, and then about restropping with a pasted strop to attain the most from the edge.. I just looked for it also.... it is still on here but buried deep....
Johnny I don't know where you are in this great wide world but here is an offer.....
Send me the razor I will hone it and get it to shave ready all the way through stropping it and send it back to you... No charge, that way you can test the blade from that point, and see if perhaps that was the problem all along....If yer not in the CONUS maybe one of the EU honers can make the same offer????
PM me if you want to accept the offer....
In the traditional way knifes are honed, by honing one side till a bur folds over and next honing the other side, then the coticule produces a bur. If I'm not mistaken Verhoeven deals mainly with that kind of honing. Wire edges on razors are very closely related, but not entirely the same thing. When honing razor-style (flipping the blade over with each stroke) a coticule does not allow for a wire edge to be formed. As far as I can tell, that's an empirical truth. I believe that the coticule's very typical garnets are responsible for that. http://uk.ardennes-coticule.com/images/sites/grena.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by kevint
They're approx. 15 microns in diameter. An shaveable edge width is less that 0.5 microns. I think those garnets "round" the edge at a microscopical level before it can become so thin that it decays into a wire edge. The edge just maxes out before a wire edge can start to develop. The downside is that if you raise a slurry on a coticule, the edge maxes out at a level that does shave, but still leaves a margin for improvement. When used with water only, the edge again maxes out, but at a significant keener level.
Sorry for the :OT.
Bart.
If you're smart you should take up glen on his offer.
BTW, Glen, I have about 50 straights that I'm not sure why they don't shave...
I'm not smart, but I'll take Glen up on his offer anyway. PM sent.
:roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by gugi
hahahaha, classic gugi.
The mail delivery service in my area is so incredibly lousy, I'm getting cold feet about mailing the W&B. Just the other day they delivered a sizeable IRS refund check to my next door neighbor, and another razor I bought to a lady who lives in a house with the same number, but on a different street. She dropped it into a mailbox marked "re-deliver" and they sent it right back to her.
Glen, how do you feel about doing this experiment with my Famous Double Arrow instead? It's a very good shaver but I'm not emotionally attached to it. I've got a lot of work in the W&B and it is my favorite razor. I would be pretty upset if those clowns delivered it to god-knows-where, as they seem to be doing with more & more of my mail.
As for the coticule not raising a burr, this is not uncommon of all natural stones because the natural abrasives are different (less harsh) from those used in manmade hones. It also has to do with the method of honing razors; alternating sides versus continuing on one side for a period of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
And yes, there is almost always some burr or edge inconsistancy on the ESM level but proper stropping will eliminate anything that could be felt by your skin.